[gwnn]

1♦-(1♠)-2♥-p
?

xxxx
x
AQxx
AKxx

this is a hypothetical hand. there is no resulting involved.

what do you bid and how forcing is it?

edit: 2♥ is forcing. I promise I would have told you if we'd have agreed to NFB's!

[hotShot]

I'll pass, and that is non forcing.
My 4♠ cards make it unlikely for partner to have good ♠ stopper, so I don't see a good NT contract on our side. They also suggest that opps might not have a fit, which suggests that we won't have a fit either.
I hope that partner can ruff some ♠ with his small trumps, entering my hand in the minors and makes his ♥ honors. With a little luck thats enough for 7-8 tricks.
With a little more luck, opps will balance in 2♠.....

[gwnn]

2♥ is forcing. you can't pass it.

[Jlall]

3C, it is F1, 3red passable next.

[Fluffy]

we had a similar thread last year and the consensous in the end seemed to be that 2NT doesn't promise a stopper

it does however promise a second heart so I prefer 3♣.

[gnasher]

It's pretty horrible, but I'd still bid 2NT (assuming that it doesn't promise a stop). If I'm going to play in a silly partscore, I prefer 2NT without a stop to 3♦ without a fit. If partner has a 2524 game-force, he will bid 3♣. And if he insists on playing in hearts, I can live with that - I have some winners for him.

[ArtK78]

I bid 3♣. I have no spade stop, so 2NT is out (the idea that 2NT does not promise a spade stop is bizarre). I only have 4 diamonds, so I can't rebid them. I don't have heart support, so raising hearts is out. I can't pass as 2♥ is forcing.

That leaves 3♣. Not that bidding 3♣ is bad - I have 4 good clubs.

Quite frankly, I don't see how this is so difficult. But I am sure someone else will show me why this is difficult.

[nigel_k]

Prefer 3♣ to 2NT.

At first I was leaning towards 2NT for similar reasons to gnasher. If partner has rebiddable hearts or a club suit it probably doesn't matter. If not, then he could easily have a good hand with three diamonds and we could get too high if I rebid 3♣.

But I think partner will quite often just raise to 3NT with 2524, especially if the clubs are only Qxxx. And if he has three diamonds, e.g. 2533, then it's quite possible that nothing makes anyway plus he could still let me out at 3NT.

As a side issue, do people think there is any merit in playing 2♥ as GF in this kind of situation and just double with less. If so, maybe 2♠ would be best here.

[hotShot]

ArtK78, on Jan 16 2010, 03:28 PM, said:

Quite frankly, I don't see how this is so difficult.  But I am sure someone else will show me why this is difficult.

Perhaps I can give you the idea (note that this are not all possible hands partner can hold).

You know that partner promised 5+♥ and LHO promised 5+♠.
So partner and RHO share 3♠ cards.

The odds are:
partner [space] RHO [space] [space] prob. [space] partners most likely shapes
 [space]3 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]0 [space] [space] 11% [space] [space] 35(23), 35(14)
 [space]2 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]1 [space] [space] 39% [space] [space] 2533, [space]25(42)
 [space]1 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]2 [space] [space] 39% [space] [space] 15(43)
 [space]0 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]3 [space] [space] 11% [space] [space] 0544*
*(I'll assume that partner would dbl 1[sp] with this shape)

If partners shape is one of 35(23) or 2533 we don't have a fit and everything depends of partner having ♠ stopper.
If partners shape is 34(14), 25(42) or 15(43), my 3♣ bis is forcing so I can never be sure, if partners 3♦ bid promises 3 or 4 cards (we might play 3♦ on a 4-3 fit and miss our 4-4♣ fit) and we can't play ♣ below the 4 level.

So the bidding choices are:
3♣ forcing => partner bids 3♦ with or without ♦ fit who knows or have to play 4♣ (perhaps in a 4-3 fit)
2NT => without a ♠ stopper could lead to 3NT down because of the missing ♠ stopper
pass => partners forcing 2♥ bid

[PaulLanier]

Since 2♥ is forcing, I would rebid 3♣. If 3NT or 4♥ is there, partner must bid it. If partner's rebid is 3♥, I will pass.

[655321]

hotShot, on Jan 16 2010, 03:29 PM, said:

So the bidding choices are:
3♣ forcing => partner bids 3♦ with or without ♦ fit who knows or have to play 4♣ (perhaps in a 4-3 fit)
2NT  => without a ♠ stopper could lead to 3NT down because of the missing ♠ stopper
pass => partners forcing 2♥ bid

No, passing 2♥ is not a choice, passing this sort of forcing bid is really bad.
Incidentally, you appear to have assumed that there are only 12 spades in the deck, but that assumption is not as bad an error as passing 2♥ here.

nigel_k, on Jan 16 2010, 03:28 PM, said:

As a side issue, do people think there is any merit in playing 2♥ as GF in this kind of situation and just double with less. If so, maybe 2♠ would be best here.

No, but I do think there is merit in allowing opener to bid 2♠ here anyway, and on similar weak notrumps without 3 hearts and without a spade stopper.

[hotShot]

655321, on Jan 16 2010, 09:56 PM, said:

Incidentally, you appear to have assumed that there are only 12 spades in the deck,

Upps

[jdonn]

3♣ wtp?

[neilkaz]

jdonn, on Jan 16 2010, 05:34 PM, said:

3♣ wtp?

My thoughts exactly.