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Precision 1D Relays Which way is better?

#1 User is offline   olien 

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Posted 2010-January-14, 14:53

I am debating between which of the following structures to use:

version 1:
1 shows 10-15 HCP 2+, not balanced. Opening 1NT is 13-15 and 11-12's in 1st and 2nd seat are passed. In response it's fairly natural:

1M...Natural Forcing
1N...7-11- NF
2...GF Relay
2...Natural F1
2...5+ 4+ <INV
2...INV 6+
2NT...Natural INV
3...5/4+ minors, <INV
3...weak

a 2 opening shows 6+ and 2 opening is 3-suited short in , so 1 can be 4xx5 with 2+

version 2:
1 is the same as above, but balanced hands with 11-12 HCP and at least 1 4-card major are allowed. In response:

1...4+ F1 or no 4M <GF
1....4+ F1
1NT...GF Relay
2m...Natural NF
2...5+ 4+ <INV
2+ whatever

Reason a 4-card major must be promised if balanced is for the following auction:
1 -1// 1NT showing a balanced hand has to promise 4 or one would have to raise into what could be a potentially disastorous contract.


or Version 3, which I haven't really looked much into:
1...Natural or GF relay
1...Natural F1
1NT...Natural NF
2m...Natural (NF?)
2+ whatever


Some insight into why one thinks whichever way is better would be good and follow ups would be appreciated on version 3 if that is your choice.
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2010-January-14, 15:14

Complete confused why 1NT is defined as natural NF.
Opener appears to be promising an unbalanced hand...
Just when will opener pass 1NT? (some 4225 hand???)

I'd use 1 as a relay (doesn't necessarily promise values)

1 = Relay
1 = Natural, 4+ Hearts, forcing
1N = Natural, 4+ Spades Forcing
2 = Natural, NF
2 = Natural, NF
2 = 5+, 4 NF
2+ = whatever

After 1 - 1

1S = Diamonds and a major
1N = Clubs and a major
2 = Two suited with both minors
2 = 6+ Diamonds, single suited
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   olien 

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Posted 2010-January-14, 17:13

I am under the rules of the ACBL :P

So a relay must promise GF values to be playable in most situations. So for us to be able to use that, 1 would have to promise GF values. That's why we have 1NT as natural NF, it's basically a weak relay with no 4-card major.

More thoughts are welcome :)
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#4 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2010-January-14, 18:10

IMO version 3 is the most logical and best

2 response should be some non-major invite hands+some minor GF
2 sound....

1-1-

..1 4
..1N nat bal
..2 540-2
..2 like 2
..2 5+43
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..." --sathyab
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#5 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2010-January-14, 19:38

I like 1NT as relay but work out the relay structure first to decide whether it's playable

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...=35856&hl=relay
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#6 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2010-January-14, 23:43

If you're determined to do something along these lines, here's what I'd suggest:

Option 1, but expand the 1NT opening range to 12-15. Invert the meanings of the 1NT and 2 responses so that 1NT is the game forcing relay and 2 is pass or correct. Seems like you have some flexibility in your further bidding, as you may not need a natural 1NT rebid. You could try playing Keri instead of Stayman after 1NT openings to better handle the wider range.

However, I don't think something like this will be superior to normal methods.
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#7 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2010-January-15, 00:33

I think playing 1 unbalanced-but-2+ is really underutilizing a very cheap opening. Either play it unbalanced 0+ (3-suited/diamonds/minors), or include the balanced hands too and play it 2+ (bal or natural 4+) and put the 4M-5 hands in 2..

Just my take on the NT responses... I like to limit my 1N response to "no game on power", so you don't go looking for magic 3N's and go down in 2N.

1-?
1N up to 10 (psych?)
2 natural or 11-12 balanced (F1)
2N 13-14, sound invite
3N as usual

Over the 2, 2 showed any minimum (9-11) and would be passed by the balanced hand. Other responses showed varying degrees of extras via relays, and forced to 2N/3m opposite the balanced hand and game otherwise.
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#8 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2010-January-15, 03:52

olien, on Jan 14 2010, 03:53 PM, said:

I am debating between which of the following structures to use:

version 1:
1 shows 10-15 HCP 2+, not balanced. Opening 1NT is 13-15 and 11-12's in 1st and 2nd seat are passed. In response it's fairly natural:

1M...Natural Forcing
1N...7-11- NF
2...GF Relay
2...Natural F1
2...5+ 4+ <INV
2...INV 6+
2NT...Natural INV
3...5/4+ minors, <INV
3...weak

a 2 opening shows 6+ and 2 opening is 3-suited short in , so 1 can be 4xx5 with 2+

version 2:
1 is the same as above, but balanced hands with 11-12 HCP and at least 1 4-card major are allowed. In response:

1...4+ F1 or no 4M <GF
1....4+ F1
1NT...GF Relay
2m...Natural NF
2...5+ 4+ <INV
2+ whatever

Reason a 4-card major must be promised if balanced is for the following auction:
1 -1// 1NT showing a balanced hand has to promise 4 or one would have to raise into what could be a potentially disastorous contract.


or Version 3, which I haven't really looked much into:
1...Natural or GF relay
1...Natural F1
1NT...Natural NF
2m...Natural (NF?)
2+ whatever


Some insight into why one thinks whichever way is better would be good and follow ups would be appreciated on version 3 if that is your choice.

Version 1:
I think it is better to open 54M22 with 1NT. Your 1 will then show 4+ most of the time (a 3crd is only possible with 1-4-3-5 or 4-1-3-5).
I also think it is better to use the 1NT response as the GF relay. Hands that fit the natural 1NT response can either bid clubs, support diamonds or pass.

Version 2/3:
I do not see how you will be able to sort everything out after the 1NT relay. If you want to include balanced hands in 1, I think you will have to use the 1 relay (version 3). This will surely complicate things. Loosing the natural 1 response is also a lot bigger loss than loosing the natural 1NT response.

Steven
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-January-15, 04:22

I would definitely use version 3 if it's allowed. Natural or GF relay gives up almost nothing. Opener can easily respond (and natural):
1 = 4 (here you can use XYZ or 2 as GF relay)
1NT = any bal or semibal without 4M (here again XYZ or 2 GF relay)
2 = both minors (here I advise you to play 2 or 2 forcing, 2 is pretty high)
2 = singlesuited (2 or 2 forcing)
2 = 4 (2 forcing)

If you play 1-2 as weak, you can make a 2 rebid forcing so your relays are better.
After 1-1-2 you obviously don't have much space to ask the entire hand, but it's possible to get a decent precision.

I've played a similar structure over a 1 opening which was any hand without 5M (so 0+, included hands where you'd open 2!) and it worked very well.
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