[pclayton]

paulhar, on Sep 2 2004, 02:52 PM, said:

ochinko, on Sep 2 2004, 05:14 PM, said:

It seems that the American players are among the few that remain faithful to the traditional weak two openings.

There's a reason for that.

The improving player wants to practice bids that he's allowed to play in club games and tournaments.

Some people on BBO have partnerships that are both F2F and online. They don't want to play one system online and other F2F. And, here in the US, Multi, Muiderberg, etc. aren't allowed in F2F at most levels.

I think Muiderberg is OK (one known suit), but why play it if you can't have 2♦ as multi?

I see this changing; Southern California seems to be on the leading edge of things with the ACBL; we allow Suction at regionals, and more of the midchart stuff is allowed in the open regional team events. I played against one pair that used 2♦ as undisciplined weak 2 (0-8 HCP) and 2♥/2♠ as a disciplined call.

I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if the pendulum is starting to swing back.

[the hog]

A further improvement is:

2D Multi, various flavours
2H - 5/5 unspecified major minor
2S Majors minors 5/5
2N unspecified minor pre empt
3m constructive pre empts

Or you could try Tutti Frutti 2 bids

[helene_t]

Even better is:
2♥: 6 hearts, or 5+ (if 5, not-to-long spades and some distribution, thus 4+ in a minor) depending on circumstances
2♠: 6 spades, or 5 (idem)
Advantages of this are:
- much less memory burden
- you can agree to play weak two with a casual p. You can't agree to play multi, since there are too many differences between the 1001 conventions which are called "multi". (For example, what does 2♦-(double)-redouble mean?)
- if LHO doubles a natural preempt, RHO is forced to bid, which becomes less informative than if you opened an artificial preempt
- LHO can't first pass and then ballance with a modest, distributional hand
- idem for RHO if you have spades
- LHO can't overcall spades with hearts
- in situations where you would't open a weak two with a 5-card (such as 2nd seat vuln), you can show you hand more accurately after p's 2NT relay since he already knows which suit you have
- p can bid the other major naturally since it is not convertible
- p can double an interference in a major for penalties since it is not convertible
- 2♦ free for other purpose
- Opps don't know if you have 5 or 6, thus more difficult to decide when to pass a double. Also during play it is an advantage to conceal your excact shape
- no risk of dishonest gains due to opoents that haven't agreed on defence against artificial preempts
- no risk of non-verbal signals that expose whether you have the strong or the weak version
- p can support your weak 2 preemptively without the risk that you have the strong version
- p can support your weak 2 preemptively even when short in the other major

In particular, if you play multi-landy (which IS a nice convention, I agree with that), it is scarry also to play multi/Muiderberg, because partner may think that they are analogous which they are not. 2♦-2♥-3m means something completely different in the two situations, as does 2M-3m.

[ochinko]

Quote

Even better is:
2♥: 6 hearts, or 5+ (if 5, not-to-long spades and some distribution, thus 4+ in a minor) depending on circumstances
2♠: 6 spades, or 5 (idem)

This looks like a matter of personal taste and preferences

I mean, it is obviously more flexible but not descriptive enough if your pair follows strictly the Law of total tricks. Your partner wouldn't know the level to which s/he can safely raise your major suit, and this could prove fatal on matchpoints.

On the other hand, with favorable vulnerability I would overcall 1m with 2♠ almost every time I have ♠KQ109x and no outside values, no matter how many hearts I have. Let the opponents start looking for a heart fit at the third level.

Openings should be more disciplined though, I believe.

[ochinko]

paulhar, on Sep 2 2004, 06:06 PM, said:

I just looked it up - I agree wholeheartedly, it's quite cool.  If you played Wilkosz, would 2H & 2S be weak, or is there a better use for them?

For me weak 2♥/♠ only make sense when combined with Wilkosz which doesn't say much because I don't know that many conventions.

I just wish regulating authorities didn't behave so hyperactivlely

[ochinko]

The_Hog, on Sep 2 2004, 06:51 PM, said:

A further improvement is:
--- snip ---
2H - 5/5 unspecified major minor
--- snip ---

But will you ever be able to pass 2♥ then?

On second reading of my posts I noticed that my English is almost as bad as my card play for which I beg forgiveness

[pbleighton]

I agree with Helene - I like 5 card weak 2s (including 2D) NV and in the 3rd seat V. It's true that they aren't LOTT-safe, but the opps (even decent ones) frequently wind up in terrible contracts.

Having said that, if the ACBL's GCC were modified to allow the multi, I would certainly try some sort of 2D = multi, 2M = Muiderberg or some other 2 suiter.

I looked at a bunch of the ccs from the Bermuda Bowl, and this type of arrangement was the choice of the overwhelming majority of pairs.

Peter

[Free]

Since we're talking about weak-2 openers in natural systems, I prefer:
2♦ Multi
2♥ 44+M
2♠ Muiderberg
because the 2♥ Muiderberg doesn't gain much, opps usually find their fit with ease, but 2♥ is a lot harder to defend against.

An alternative which I also like:
2♦ 44+ ♦-M
2♥ weak ♥ or ♠
2♠ Muiderberg (or Lucas - which includes 5♠-4♥)

[paulhar]

The_Hog, on Sep 2 2004, 06:51 PM, said:

Or you could try Tutti Frutti 2 bids

I tried to find these online - when I have time to learn Polish (the language, not the system ), I'll be able to see what these are

[the hog]

I have posted them to bbo earlier this year.

[keylime]

They allowed midchart items for the first time here last week at the regional. Besides the relay systems, the 2S/NT being a preempt, and the many 5-4's at 2 of a major (not a lot of multi, scary) -- not many did much of anything else. No problems mentioned.

However the NT defenses, now that's where A LOT of different ones came to the forefront.