[MTSummit]

after 15-17 1NT open,

i had a strong forcing to game hand with strong minor suit:

xx K Qxx AQJxxxx

what should i bid?

in my system, 3C = invite 3NT with an honor in club, like

xx xxx xx AQxxxx

thanks~

[rbforster]

Stayman followed bidding your 3♣ would be natural and game forcing. Some people play special methods (Walsh relay) to show these hands, in which case game-forcing stayman continuations actually promise a 4 card major.

[MTSummit]

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:50 PM, said:

Stayman followed bidding your 3♣ would be natural and game forcing. Some people play special methods (Walsh relay) to show these hands, in which case game-forcing stayman continuations actually promise a 4 card major.

1nt 2c
2x 3c

i feel this 3c sounds invitational, not game forcing

[rbforster]

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

1nt 2c
2x 3c

i feel this 3c sounds invitational, not game forcing

But since you play that a direct 1N-3♣ is invitational with a good suit, you can settle for bidding other 1-suited minor invites (with bad suits) via a 2N invitation. This frees up stayman+3m as forcing.

[jdonn]

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:50 PM, said:

Stayman followed bidding your 3♣ would be natural and game forcing.  Some people play special methods (Walsh relay) to show these hands, in which case game-forcing stayman continuations actually promise a 4 card major.

1nt 2c
2x 3c

i feel this 3c sounds invitational, not game forcing

It's game forcing. I mean what are you really asking, "how can I show a game forcing hand with a minor if I make my system so every minor suit bid is invitational?" Well, you can't, you have to make some of them forcing.

[MTSummit]

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:57 PM, said:

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

1nt 2c
2x 3c

i feel this 3c sounds invitational, not game forcing

But since you play that a direct 1N-3♣ is invitational with a good suit, you can settle for bidding other 1-suited minor invites (with bad suits) via a 2N invitation. This frees up stayman+3m as forcing.

there's difference

1nt 3c/3d

the invitational strength lies only in C suit, and promises a good 6+ suit with 2 honors.

like xxx xx xx AQxxxx
or Qx xxx xx KQxxxx


1nt 2c
2x 3c/3d

is normal invitational

like

Qxxx Kxx x KJxxx or something similar?

[MTSummit]

jdonn, on Jan 7 2010, 03:00 PM, said:

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:50 PM, said:

Stayman followed bidding your 3♣ would be natural and game forcing.  Some people play special methods (Walsh relay) to show these hands, in which case game-forcing stayman continuations actually promise a 4 card major.

1nt 2c
2x 3c

i feel this 3c sounds invitational, not game forcing

It's game forcing. I mean what are you really asking, "how can I show a game forcing hand with a minor if I make my system so every minor suit bid is invitational?" Well, you can't, you have to make some of them forcing.

perhaps i didn't make my question clearly

the question should be, a game forcing hand with single strong minor suit

[Ant590]

If you play
(i) 1NT - 3♣ as invitational
and
(ii) 1NT - Stayman - 3♣ as invitational also

The only way you can game force is to bid
(1) Stayman then 3NT
(2) 3NT directly (but you miss out on showing the minor)
(3) 4C

You can see why most players choose to make at least one of i,ii game forcing!

[jjbrr]

You worry too much about inviting and not enough about how to GF. The others have explained the standard treatment.

The last possibility is to play transfers to the minors. Doing so then 3NT=choice of games, which I think is what you're trying to get at.

[Ant590]

Deleted -- double post

[jdonn]

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 03:06 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 7 2010, 03:00 PM, said:

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:50 PM, said:

Stayman followed bidding your 3♣ would be natural and game forcing.  Some people play special methods (Walsh relay) to show these hands, in which case game-forcing stayman continuations actually promise a 4 card major.

1nt 2c
2x 3c

i feel this 3c sounds invitational, not game forcing

It's game forcing. I mean what are you really asking, "how can I show a game forcing hand with a minor if I make my system so every minor suit bid is invitational?" Well, you can't, you have to make some of them forcing.

perhaps i didn't make my question clearly

the question should be, a game forcing hand with single strong minor suit

Your question was clear and so was the answer. Stayman then 3♣ is game forcing with clubs. Now we are just going in circles.

[MTSummit]

i found one solution from a friend for my system:

1NT 2D
2H 2S
2NT 3m

2D as forcing transfer (relay) to 2H,
2S as another forcing transfer to 2NT
then 3C/3D is game forcing minor

anyway, thx all for nice suggestion

[mike777]

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 03:02 PM, said:

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:57 PM, said:

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

1nt 2c
2x 3c

i feel this 3c sounds invitational, not game forcing

But since you play that a direct 1N-3♣ is invitational with a good suit, you can settle for bidding other 1-suited minor invites (with bad suits) via a 2N invitation. This frees up stayman+3m as forcing.

there's difference

1nt 3c/3d

the invitational strength lies only in C suit, and promises a good 6+ suit with 2 honors.

like xxx xx xx AQxxxx
or Qx xxx xx KQxxxx


1nt 2c
2x 3c/3d

is normal invitational

like

Qxxx Kxx x KJxxx or something similar?

right so you need to give up inv with a scattered hcp and a long minor bidding your way.


How you invite with that hand is 2c and then 2nt.

2c and then 3 of minor is natural and game forcing.

Neither promises a 4 card major.

[rbforster]

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:50 PM, said:

Some people play special methods (Walsh relay) to show these hands, in which case game-forcing stayman continuations actually promise a 4 card major.

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

i found one solution from a friend for my system:

1NT 2D
2H 2S
2NT 3m

2D as forcing transfer (relay) to 2H,
2S as another forcing transfer to 2NT
then 3C/3D is game forcing minor

anyway, thx all for nice suggestion

That's very much along the lines of Walsh Relay. I think originally 3m (in your double relay auction) showed 1/3 top honors, 3M showed the corresponding minor with 2/3 top cards, and 3N showed 3/3 top honors in an unspecified minor (but opener should be able to tell).

[mike777]

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

i found one solution from a friend for my system:

1NT 2D
2H 2S
2NT 3m

2D as forcing transfer (relay) to 2H,
2S as another forcing transfer to 2NT
then 3C/3D is game forcing minor

anyway, thx all for nice suggestion

1nt=2d
2h=2s


This is invitational with 5h and 4s.

[peachy]

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

i found one solution from a friend for my system:

1NT 2D
2H 2S
2NT 3m

2D as forcing transfer (relay) to 2H,
2S as another forcing transfer to 2NT
then 3C/3D is game forcing minor

anyway, thx all for nice suggestion

You lose a lot of pretty valuable ground playing this method. Go with the standard that others have suggested, I would think better. But it is your system:)

[mike777]

peachy, on Jan 7 2010, 05:40 PM, said:

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

i found one solution from a friend for my system:

1NT 2D
2H 2S
2NT 3m

2D as forcing transfer (relay) to 2H,
2S as another forcing transfer to 2NT
then 3C/3D is game forcing minor

anyway, thx all for nice suggestion

You lose a lot of pretty valuable ground playing this method. Go with the standard that others have suggested, I would think better. But it is your system:)

Ya I mean do your really want to play in some 5-2 minor fit or even a 5-3 minor fit at the 3 level with your example hand:

1nt=2c
2d=3minor?

[MTSummit]

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 05:31 PM, said:

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:50 PM, said:

Some people play special methods (Walsh relay) to show these hands, in which case game-forcing stayman continuations actually promise a 4 card major.

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

i found one solution from a friend for my system:

1NT 2D
2H 2S
2NT 3m

2D as forcing transfer (relay) to 2H,
2S as another forcing transfer to 2NT
then 3C/3D is game forcing minor

anyway, thx all for nice suggestion

That's very much along the lines of Walsh Relay. I think originally 3m (in your double relay auction) showed 1/3 top honors, 3M showed the corresponding minor with 2/3 top cards, and 3N showed 3/3 top honors in an unspecified minor (but opener should be able to tell).

thx, i didn't know the name is Walsh relay. but i will not really use its original meaning after 2NT, i'd use them as natural bids.

3C/3D = strong GF minor suit

3H = inv. 4/5(+) majors
3S = GF 5/5 majors etc.

i hope it will work

[MTSummit]

mike777, on Jan 7 2010, 05:29 PM, said:

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 03:02 PM, said:

Rob F, on Jan 7 2010, 02:57 PM, said:

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

1nt 2c
2x 3c

i feel this 3c sounds invitational, not game forcing

But since you play that a direct 1N-3♣ is invitational with a good suit, you can settle for bidding other 1-suited minor invites (with bad suits) via a 2N invitation. This frees up stayman+3m as forcing.

there's difference

1nt 3c/3d

the invitational strength lies only in C suit, and promises a good 6+ suit with 2 honors.

like xxx xx xx AQxxxx
or Qx xxx xx KQxxxx


1nt 2c
2x 3c/3d

is normal invitational

like

Qxxx Kxx x KJxxx or something similar?

right so you need to give up inv with a scattered hcp and a long minor bidding your way.


How you invite with that hand is 2c and then 2nt.

2c and then 3 of minor is natural and game forcing.

Neither promises a 4 card major.

well, i'd use 2NT as a balanced invitational hand and 3m as an unbalanced one. but as a friend pointed out, i really care too much about invitational ones

[MTSummit]

peachy, on Jan 7 2010, 05:40 PM, said:

MTSummit, on Jan 7 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

i found one solution from a friend for my system:

1NT 2D
2H 2S
2NT 3m

2D as forcing transfer (relay) to 2H,
2S as another forcing transfer to 2NT
then 3C/3D is game forcing minor

anyway, thx all for nice suggestion

You lose a lot of pretty valuable ground playing this method. Go with the standard that others have suggested, I would think better. But it is your system:)

y sure, at least i should know the standard way. that's why i made this thread and asked for help. as for the new way i found, it was a surprise