[kgr]

Thanks all for the answers.
The complete bidding (with a DBL by RHO) and hand in:
http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...=0&#entry423257
At IMP's I would bid 3NT, but I choose to pass at MP's.

[eyhung]

Codo, on Jan 7 2010, 01:05 AM, said:

Mikeh wrotes some good reasons why 3 ♦ may fail. Did you read them? Do you care to discuss them?

There is no denying that 3NT may have a psychological advantage in that they may lead the wrong suit. In my opinion, this advantage is grossly overrated on this hand. Of the three suits they might lead, my hand has nothing in 2 of them, and a mostly non-positional holding in the third. The opponents are not random suit leaders -- given the relative weakness of my majors, they will lead a heart more than 1/3 of the time, and a spade when it's right a significant portion of the time (because they hold good or long spades). And when they do, we rate to lose a trick to the field. Even when they lead a diamond, we might lose a trick to the field not in diamonds, but because of failing to give them the opportunity to blow a trick by leading into a major-suit tenace!

Finally, if you think that bidding 3NT might deflect them into leading the wrong suit, consider that LHO (who could not overcall at the 1-level) is more likely to hold a long, strong suit than RHO (who could overcall any suit at the 1-level). I repeat, I think the _technical_ problem of wrong-siding the contract is far worse than any _psychological_ benefit we gain by concealing where our stoppers lie. At the very least, one cannot say with a straight face that 3♦ has almost no chance of improving the score -- at matchpoints, getting the strong hand with the tenaces to declare will likely improve your score.

You say that sometimes 3NT > 5♣ when hearts are unstopped. And yet:

1) Bidding 3♦ does not force us to game. It is merely a probe for a heart-stop for 3NT, analogous to checking for keycards before bidding slam. Partner can bid 3NT with the heart stop, pull to 4♣ without one, or even drive to 5♣ with no stop and extra values. So comparing 3NT to 5♣ is a false analogy because you should not be in 5♣ unless you are likely to make 5♣. Rather, the correct comparison is 3NT to 4♣. (The earlier hand you gave gets us to 5♣ because that is a hand with extras -- a 7-card club suit, a source of tricks in diamonds, and the spade ace.)

2) Hands where 3NT > 4♣ when we are wide-open in hearts seem rare to me. Remember this is matchpoints: worship the plus, the plus is good. For every fluke 3NT that makes because hearts break 4-4 / 4-3 and they have no other fast trick, there rate to be multiple hands where you will be in 3NT off the first 5 or 6 tricks while I am in 4♣ going plus or down less than 3NT because I identified we are wide open in hearts.

Matchpoints is about frequency of win, not magnitude. I think it is foolish to bash into a game where you are frequently costing your side trick(s) from the bad positioning, when a slower approach would eliminate a significant amount of disasters and also right-side the contract.

Finally, if you are going to invoke misunderstanding as an argument against 3♦, all I can say is, you are making a forcing bid and showing your values. If your partnership cannot survive this then perhaps your bidding fundamentals need work. The followups are not rocket science. Most of the time, I expect opener to rebid 3NT with a heart stop and 4/5♣ without, and life is simple (you pass). If opener throws a curveball with 3♠ or 3♥, he is clearly not interested in 3NT and must have an unusual hand. While this is not an easy auction, you can take comfort in that whatever action you take next, you will be ahead of the 3NT bashers, because partner has gone out of his way to indicate that despite your diamond card, he sees rocky waters ahead for 3NT. Since you have no extras for him, he'll be right.

[Fluffy]

lol eyhung, it is hard to argue with someone who won't listen, but I will try.

If you bid 3♦ and partner bids 3M, 4♣ now from you is forcing for many.

But anyway you mad your points I made mines, I drop the subject.

[hanp]

But if you bid 3D and partner bids 4C, you can pass.

[Codo]

hanp, on Jan 7 2010, 11:36 PM, said:

But if you bid 3D and partner bids 4C, you can pass.

And which hand does he hold for a 4 club bid?

[eyhung]

Fluffy, on Jan 7 2010, 03:09 AM, said:

lol eyhung, it is hard to argue with someone who won't listen, but I will try.

Right back at ya.

Reread what I said :

Most of the time, I expect partner to rebid a [non-forcing] 3NT, 4♣, or 5♣. If 3M makes playing 4♣ impossible, partner darn well better not bid it without being ready for a contract higher than 4♣.

If partner rebids 4♣, he has a minimum 3♣ rebid without a heart stop. I think I made that pretty clear in my post, and I think this is a natural and understandable interpretation -- when in doubt, a bid that can be natural nf is natural nf. If you need me to dot the i's and cross the t's, well, what call do you make with something like AJ Jx KJx AQJxxx. Do you really want to force to 5♣ off the top two hearts?

If partner rebids 3M, he has an unusual hand. A hand that doesn't mind forcing us past 4♣ because it's prime and has shape. Something like KQx x Kx AQxxxxx, or x Ax KQJx AQTxxx, or AK x Kxx AQxxxxx [slam try, cold opposite CK, DA and a pointy queen]. So it's a false analogy to compare 3NT vs. 5♣, because we only reach 5♣ or higher when partner wants us to.


Really, I think I have been very explicit in what I expect from partner after 3♦. More so than the other 3♦ advocates. And you didn't even bother to rebut my argument that the major advantage of 3♦ lies in avoiding some obvious disasters and right-siding the contract.

[Fluffy]

eyhung, on Jan 7 2010, 05:48 PM, said:

Reread what I said :

no thanks, I dropped the subject

[quiddity]

eyhung, on Jan 7 2010, 12:48 PM, said:

Most of the time, I expect partner to rebid a [non-forcing] 3NT, 4♣, or 5♣. If 3M makes playing 4♣ impossible, partner darn well better not bid it without being ready for a contract higher than 4♣.

If you need me to dot the i's and cross the t's, well, what call do you make with something like AJ Jx KJx AQJxxx. Do you really want to force to 5♣ off the top two hearts?

I don't follow this. Did the 3D bid deny a 5-card spade suit? If not, I would expect opener to bid 3S very often with unexceptional 3-card support here unless his heart holding is completely no-trumpy. He might even have to bid 3S with Hx if he lacks a heart stopper (as with your example hand). If he bids 4C responder might pass when 4S is cold.