[aguahombre]

I know we went through this a while back, but I forget:

Is 8 solid in a minor and just an outside KX enough to open 2C (strong artif) legally in ACBL, EBU, Hong Kong, whereever?

I don't want to do it, but someone else asked; and I don't remember what the people on here who were able to cite the established criteria said.

[bluejak]

In the EBU there are three rules for minimum standards:

Orange book 10B4 said:

Strong openings are often described as ‘Extended Rule of 25’ which means the minimum allowed is any of:
a] subject to proper disclosure, a hand that contains as a minimum the normal highcard strength associated with a one-level opening and at least eight clear cut tricks,
or
b] any hand meeting the Rule of 25 or
c] any hand of at least 16 HCPs
Examples:
♠ A K Q J x x x x ♥ x x ♦ x x ♣ x does count as 8 clear-cut tricks.
♠ A K Q x x x x x ♥ x x ♦ x x ♣ x does not.
Clear-cut tricks are clarified as tricks expected to make opposite a void in partner’s
hand and the second best suit break.
Further examples:
AKQxxxxx (7 CCT), KQJxxxx (4), AQJ98xx (5), KQJTx (3), KQJTxxx (5),
AKT9xxxxx (8), KJTxxx (1)

It does not meet b] or c], but it may be opened under a] "subject to proper disclosure", ie the bid of 2♣ must be described fully, not just "Acol", "Standard" or "Benjamin": perhaps "very strong, but may be reasonably weak with a lot of playing tricks".

In the ACBL it is legal to open it if you believe it is "strong", since the ACBL has ruled that the decision as to whether it meets the criteria for strong is whether the person making it believes it to be strong.

That presumably means you can open 2♣ on
32
32
32
QJT98732
if you can convince the TD that you always upgrade hands containing four twos and four threes.

As for Hong Kong, I have no idea. It is possible they follow WBF rules, which are rather vague: I think it is legal in any jurisdiction that follows WBF rules.

[aguahombre]

thanks, now what exactly is the rule of 25?

[jdonn]

I have no problem with the EBU's rule, but their definition of clear cut tricks is really really really goofy. If they changed void to singleton it would be much more fair.

Btw isn't KQJTxxx 6 clear cut tricks by definition, and KQJxxxx 5? You get a 4-2 break.

Sorry if this veered off the question, but it was answered in one post.

[LH2650]

Bluejak knows more about the ACBL rule than he lets on. The OP hand, and some hands that are legal in the EBU would not qualify, but some that the EBU would disallow are acceptable to the ACBL. Take ♠ AKQT98, ♥ JT9876 ♦x. This is legal in the ACBL, but as far as I can tell it is illegal in the EBU (rule =22?). Isn't this at least as likely as the EBU examples to catch enough in a dummy to make game when a 1-bid would be passed?

[aguahombre]

i ask again...is the rule of 25 tricks plus points, or tricks plus two longest (joke)...or points plus 2 longest, or something else?

[jdonn]

LH2650, on Jan 2 2010, 11:19 PM, said:

Bluejak knows more about the ACBL rule than he lets on. The OP hand, and some hands that are legal in the EBU would not qualify, but some that the EBU would disallow are acceptable to the ACBL. Take ♠ AKQT98, ♥ JT9876 ♦x. This is legal in the ACBL, but as far as I can tell it is illegal in the EBU (rule =22?). Isn't this at least as likely as the EBU examples to catch enough in a dummy to make game when a 1-bid would be passed?

Isn't that 5 + 3 = 8 "clear cut tricks"?

[jeremy69]

Quote

  thanks, now what exactly is the rule of 25? 

The Rule of 25 is arrived at by adding the high card points to the two longest suits so in my opinion the hand given by the OP qualifies in this category because 8 solid plus Kx will be 13hcp and 12 points for the longest two suits.

Quote

Isn't that 5 + 3 = 8 "clear cut tricks"?

Yes it is. It has 5 clearcut spade tricks and 3 clearcut heart tricks and the points normally associated with a one level opening so would be legal in England. If you weakened the suit pips, however, it might well not be.

[RMB1]

bluejak, on Jan 3 2010, 02:12 AM, said:

...  It is possible they follow WBF rules, which are rather vague: I think it is legal in any jurisdiction that follows WBF rules.

The WBF rules for two-level openers are contained in the Brown Sticker regulations.

If Brown Sticker conventions are not allowed, 2C through 3S can be
1) Not weak (weak = below average strength)
2) Four cards in a known suit
3) Weak options with four cards in a known suit, and any strong options (strong = king above average strength)
4) 2m showing a weak two in either major with or without strong options

So, loosely, any hand with 10 HCP (including AKQJ... in a suit) is not Brown Sticker and is allowed as two-level opening bid in any WBF event.

Robin

[wank]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2010, 10:34 PM, said:

Btw isn't KQJTxxx 6 clear cut tricks by definition, and KQJxxxx 5? You get a 4-2 break.

It's done on the 2nd best break opposite a void. So assuming a 4-2 break, KQJTxxx is indeed 6 tricks and KQJxxxx is indeed 5.

And Rule of 25 is points plus number of cards in 2 longest suits.

[bluejak]

I have always disliked the term "Rule of ..." which was invented long before my time on the EBU L&EC. Australia, which had some minimum opening rules until a few years ago, used the same calculation but called them "Opening Points" which I much prefer.

Quote

Isn't this at least as likely as the EBU examples to catch enough in a dummy to make game when a 1-bid would be passed?

In many ways this comment shows where the basic problem is. The better players believe that a strong bid shows top cards that partner can rely on. Poorer players believe that a hand strong in tricks has to be opened with a strong bid because .... Well, it is not clear why. Perhaps they fear it will be passed out, though that is unbelievable with a 10 count: do your opponents never bid on their combined 26 count?!?!

The other problem in England is that players learn that "Acol Twos" show eight playing tricks. They don't, of course: they show a hand of power and quality with at least eight playing tricks, but the "hand of power and quality" bit is forgotten. So poorer players in England think you should open a strong bid with any eight playing tricks, even pre-emptive hands.

[jallerton]

RMB1, on Jan 3 2010, 12:00 PM, said:

The WBF rules for two-level openers are contained in the Brown Sticker regulations.

If Brown Sticker conventions are not allowed, 2C through 3S can be
1) Not weak (weak = below average strength)
2) Four cards in a known suit
3) Weak options with four cards in a known suit, and any strong options (strong = king above average strength)
4) 2m showing a weak two in either major with or without strong options

So, loosely, any hand with 10 HCP (including AKQJ... in a suit) is not Brown Sticker and is allowed as two-level opening bid in any WBF event.

Robin

Does the WBF definition of "strong" relate to high card strength or playing strength (if so, what is a hand of average playing strength)?

[RMB1]

jallerton, on Jan 3 2010, 09:39 PM, said:

Does the WBF definition of "strong" relate to high card strength or playing strength (if so, what is a hand of average playing strength)?

The definitions at the start of WBF System Policy give:

Quote

Strong = high card strength a king or more greater than that of an average hand

Which does not quite match the implicit definition in the Brown Sticker regulations:

Quote

The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit if it is weak. If the bid does not show a known four card suit it must show a hand a king or more over average strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak meanings show at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong meanings show a hand with a king or more above average strength, it is not a Brown Sticker Convention.)

"high card strength ... of an average hand" v. "average strength"

As an aside, any one care to calculate the average opening/"rule of" points. I think this is 10 + average sum of lengths of two longest suits; because average HCP of a hand is 10, independent of shape.

Robin