[DrDouble]

At my club in a board, North was dealt an opening hand with two 5 card majors. South had points to support plus 3 spades and 4 hearts. The convention I believe is to open the highest of two five card suits, yet about half the players finished with a heart contract which made 1 more trick.

Is there a bidding sequence or convention which would allow the better heart fit to b found or is it just a case of players not bidding the highest of 2 five card suits.



Beginner Here

[Mbodell]

Depending on what support means some people would play that 1♠-2♠-3♥-4♥ is an offer to play (where 3♥ was a help suit game try in hearts and then 4♥ accepts the offer but counter proposes 4♥ instead of 4♠).

Otherwise people might be playing a relay system or a system that shows 55 in the majors with a specific bid (unlikely in ACBL, but possible).

[Hanoi5]

I like playing that after support has been shown in a Major (1M-2M) bidding the other Major is natural (4 cards) and a try. Responder can support the second suit with 4 (it is usually better to play in a 4-4 fit than a 5-3).

[Phil]

Say Opener is 5♠/5♥.

If the bidding dies at 1♠ - 2♠, there isn't a whole lot you can do.

If Opener decides to make a game try with 3♥, the presence of four hearts in responder's hand may just be enough to accept the try since the hands will mesh well with the double fit.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, I like to play:

1♠-P-2♠-P-
3♥-P-?

3NT = GREAT hand, with 4+ heart support
4♥ = lesser hand (for slam purposes), great heart support (typically five)

1♥-P-2♥-P-
2♠-P-3♠ = spade support

I think the 3NT/4♥ approach helps to save space when Opener actually is slammish, by saving space. The simple raise tends to show a poor hand as far as controls but typically extra length. 5-card is not strictly required, though.

[P_Marlowe]

Mbodell, on Dec 30 2009, 09:37 PM, said:

Depending on what support means some people would play that 1♠-2♠-3♥-4♥ is an offer to play (where 3♥ was a help suit game try in hearts and then 4♥ accepts the offer but counter proposes 4♥ instead of 4♠).

Otherwise people might be playing a relay system or a system that shows 55 in the majors with a specific bid (unlikely in ACBL, but possible).

It is just a word, but I would replace "help suit" with "long suit" in your post.
Given that we are talking about a 5-5 hand, I dont think it matters, but a 4H
bid is also an option, if opener is 5-4 in the majors, in which case, I doubt
that 4H playing "help suit" is a good bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

DrDouble, on Dec 30 2009, 08:43 PM, said:

At my club in a board, North was dealt an opening hand with two 5 card majors. South had points to support plus 3 spades and 4 hearts.  The convention I believe is to open the highest of two five card suits, yet about half the players finished with a heart contract which made 1 more trick. 

Is there a bidding sequence or convention which would allow the better heart fit to b found or is it just a case of players not bidding the highest of 2 five card suits.



Beginner Here

Hi,

since you describe yourself as a "Beginner", I would suggest, not to worry
about finding a better alternate major fit, if you already have discovered one.
I am sure, there are more important areas.

Bid game, and try to make it, that usually applies to IMP / team, but is a good
advice for a B/I player.

And if you end up in the 5-3 fit instead of the 5-4, just move on, but of course
asking is not bad, just that I think, there more important areas out there.
And I would not really care about the scoresheet in a club tournament, unless
I am pretty sure, that the club has an above average level.

Lots of player at club level will open hearts before spades with a hand strong
enough to make a reverse, ... to be able to make the reverse, and this is ...,
shape beats strength, and this is not even close, if you open with hearts, you
never can convince p, that your spade suit is as long as your heart suit.

But there is one good thing about seeing a player open hearts before spades:
You know, you can stop listening to the advice he may want to share with you.
There is a small exception to this, as always, but dont bother with it, if the player
knowes, what he is doing, than you will know it anyway.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Old York]

It is possible that some were playing a forcing 1NT response:

1♠ - 1NT - 2♥ - 4♥ would be a good example

Playing in a 4-4 fit is technically superior to any 5-3 fit, this is why it is imperative to avoid immediate support, especially if partner opens 1♥ and you have a 4 card spade suit and 3 card heart support

Tony

[Phil]

Old York, on Dec 31 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

It is possible that some were playing a forcing 1NT response:

1♠ - 1NT - 2♥ - 4♥ would be a good example

Playing in a 4-4 fit is technically superior to any 5-3 fit, this is why it is imperative to avoid immediate support, especially if partner opens 1♥ and you have a 4 card spade suit and 3 card heart support

Tony

Newer players should understand that even if we are playing 2/1 Game Force with a Forcing 1N response that a responding hand that is worth only one call, and has spade support, should raise spades regardless of his heart length.

For example, if partner opens 1♠ and you hold ♠Axx ♥KJxx ♦xx ♣xxxx this hand is a raise to 2♠.

[655321]

Old York, on Dec 31 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

it is imperative to avoid immediate support, especially if partner opens 1♥ and you have a 4 card spade suit and 3 card heart support

Tony

Wrong.

[helene_t]

Phil, on Dec 31 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

Newer players should understand that even if we are playing 2/1 Game Force with a Forcing 1N response that a responding hand that is worth only one call, and has spade support, should raise spades regardless of his heart length.

For example, if partner opens 1♠ and you hold ♠Axx ♥KJxx ♦xx ♣xxxx this hand is a raise to 2♠.

Agree with your example, but if the hand were a little weaker, 1NT followed by a preference bid of 2♠ if opener rebids 2♣ or 2♦ would be ok.

[aguahombre]

655321, on Dec 31 2009, 05:16 PM, said:

Old York, on Dec 31 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

it is imperative to avoid immediate support, especially if partner opens 1♥ and you have a 4 card spade suit and 3 card heart support

Tony

Wrong.

maybe he meant to say "impractical" instead of imperative.

[Phil]

helene_t, on Dec 31 2009, 07:39 PM, said:

Phil, on Dec 31 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

Newer players should understand that even if we are playing 2/1 Game Force with a Forcing 1N response that a responding hand that is worth only one call, and has spade support, should raise spades regardless of his heart length.

For example, if partner opens 1♠ and you hold ♠Axx ♥KJxx ♦xx ♣xxxx this hand is a raise to 2♠.

Agree with your example, but if the hand were a little weaker, 1NT followed by a preference bid of 2♠ if opener rebids 2♣ or 2♦ would be ok.

Sure, like Axx Jxxx xx xxxx.

But I think this is a lot weaker.

[Old York]

655321, on Jan 1 2010, 01:16 AM, said:

Old York, on Dec 31 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

it is imperative to avoid immediate support, especially if partner opens 1♥ and you have a 4 card spade suit and 3 card heart support

Tony

Wrong.

Why?

Do you play a Canape system and normally open 1♠ with 4-5 majors?
Does your 1♥ opening always deny a 4 card spade suit??
Which would you prefer to see.... 3 card or 4 card support in dummy????

Experts have always stated that a 4-4 spade fit should be sought in preference to immediately supporting a five card heart suit with 3 cards. This is because discards can be taken on the long hearts and an extra ruff may be possible when dummy has 4 trumps. This is the simplest of all logic, so what possible reason have you to disagree?
If a 4-4 spade fit fails to materialise, then support hearts on the next round

OP's statement that the superior heart fit produced an extra trick proves that this advice is correct

Tony

[helene_t]

Tony, the problem is that the 3-card support is much more likely to be important than the length in the other major. And sometimes you won't be able to show your 3-card support if you don't support immediately:
1♥-1♠
2m-2♥
is generally (false) preference on a doubleton. So opener will no make another move with his 1543 15-count and you could miss a good game if you have some 8 points and ruffing value. With less than that it is relatively safe not to support immediately. But it could go
1♥-(p)-1♠-(2♦)
p-(3♦)-?
and now bidding 3♥ would show a better hand and may not be lott-safe.

[Old York]

helene_t, on Jan 1 2010, 05:39 PM, said:

Tony, the problem is that the 3-card support is much more likely to be important than the length in the other major. And sometimes you won't be able to show your 3-card support if you don't support immediately:
1♥-1♠
2m-2♥
is generally (false) preference on a doubleton. So opener will no make another move with his 1543 15-count and you could miss a good game if you have some 8 points and ruffing value. With less than that it is relatively safe not to support immediately. But it could go
1♥-(p)-1♠-(2♦)
p-(3♦)-?
and now bidding 3♥ would show a better hand and may not be lott-safe.

I agree with your examples, but so much depends on the strength of the hand, degree of support, quality of the other major and distribution in the minors, that impirical advice is impossible

On some hands, I would support, on others I would delay support, and on flat hands I might even bid no-trumps

Writers and journalists give "general" advice, which is expected to work most often.
Examples given show that slams/games on 4-4 fits are more likely to make than if support had been given in the other 5-3 major

The original post did not give details of the relative strength of dummy/declarer, or whether responder was a passed hand etc

Tony

[Wackojack]

Yes Tony, that is why your earlier statement

"Playing in a 4-4 fit is technically superior to any 5-3 fit, this is why it is imperative to avoid immediate support, especially if partner opens 1♥ and you have a 4 card spade suit and 3 card heart support"

is wrong.

Playing in a 4-4 fit is not technically superior to ANY 5-3 fit. In fact many 5-3 fits play better than 4-4 fits. And so it is not imperative to avoid immediate support. Indeed it is a good idea always to give immediate support with 3 if it qualifies as a raise to 2.