[bd71]

Scoring: MP

Opponents do not bid.
P-1♣
1♠-??

3 questions:
1. What's your bid?
2. How do you re-evaluate your playing strength after finding the spade fit?
3. What are appropriate playing strength ranges for various spade responses here (2S, 3S, 4S)?

---

[aguahombre]

1. Old fashioned Walsh/Hardy 2/1 players would bid 4S. (18/19 bal).
2. I don't "re-eval", I just describe my size and shape and let partner make the next mistake.
3. There are other answers playing different styles, but with std 2/1:
2S=minimum opening
3S=more than minimum total dummy points. Unbalanced hand, due to failure to open strong NT
4S=Balanced 18/19.

Unbalanced mountains with spade support have to use other tools, as agreed.

Strong club and weak NT partnerships have different perameters for their opening bids and rebids, so the above answers would not apply.

[Winstonm]

aguahombre, on Dec 26 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

1. Old fashioned Walsh/Hardy 2/1 players would bid 4S. (18/19 bal).
2. I don't "re-eval", I just describe my size and shape and let partner make the next mistake.
3. There are other answers playing different styles, but with std 2/1:
2S=minimum opening
3S=more than minimum total dummy points. Unbalanced hand, due to failure to open strong NT
4S=Balanced 18/19.

Unbalanced mountains with spade support have to use other tools, as agreed.

Strong club and weak NT partnerships have different perameters for their opening bids and rebids, so the above answers would not apply.

This is my system - I use the double jump to 4-of-the-opened minor to show a fit and hand too big to fit the categories.

[rogerclee]

It is common among good American 2/1 players to play that:

2S = single raise (12-14 balanced most frequently, can have shortness, something like AKxx xxxx Q KQxx would be a maximum 2S raise IMO)
3D/3H = invitational splinters (you can also throw in extremely strong splinters into these bids)
3S = 18-19 bal, or a hand worth the equivalent (I would bid 3S with AKxx xx xx AKJxx and AKxx K KQx Qxxxx), not forcing
4C = 6+C, 4+S, extras but not extremely strong
4D/4H = splinter, slam try
4S = better than 18-19 balanced but doesn't want to splinter. common hands would be strong 4225 hands as well as 4135 hands that don't want to splinter

You might ask why you would not want to force to game with 18-19 balanced and 4 card support. Well, these days it is very common for people to respond on sub-minimum values, and anyway most 6 counts and some 7s shouldn't accept the invite, and your slam auctions are also better when you have shown your values at the 3 level rather than the 4 level.

[aguahombre]

rogerclee, on Dec 26 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

It is common among good American 2/1 players to play that:

2S = single raise (12-14 balanced most frequently, can have shortness, something like AKxx xxxx Q KQxx would be a maximum 2S raise IMO)
3D/3H = invitational splinters (you can also throw in extremely strong splinters into these bids)
3S = 18-19 bal, or a hand worth the equivalent (I would bid 3S with AKxx xx xx AKJxx and AKxx K KQx Qxxxx), not forcing
4C = 6+C, 4+S, extras but not extremely strong
4D/4H = splinter, slam try
4S = better than 18-19 balanced but doesn't want to splinter. common hands would be strong 4225 hands as well as 4135 hands that don't want to splinter

You might ask why you would not want to force to game with 18-19 balanced and 4 card support. Well, these days it is very common for people to respond on sub-minimum values, and anyway most 6 counts and some 7s shouldn't accept the invite, and your slam auctions are also better when you have shown your values at the 3 level rather than the 4 level.

Yup, I forgot about 3H or 3D rebids and was just answering the questions asked.

We use 3H or 3D as GF splinters and the 3S bid as also unbalanced but only invitational. And we tend to have a response when we respond, so not worried about being in game with bal 18/19 and spade support.

Like I said, there are different ways of doing it. Roger's is one of them, with the either/or jump splinter. An alternative with the huge splinter is to js or reverse to the third suit, then jump to 4S -- in effect, bidding around the shortness. I don't pretend to know which is better. One works for us, the other for Roger and others.

[rogerclee]

I want to add that "bidding around the shortness" is a very 80s/90s concept that has fallen out of favor for a variety of reasons. First of all sometimes the auction does not always go your way. For example:

1D-1S
3C-3S

Now of course you cannot "jump" to 4S so you never end up showing your hand.

Also another big difference is that if you play splinters, you get to show your hand below 4M. This is very important, since it gives partner the ability to show a slam try without committing to slam. For example:

1H-1S
3C-3H
4S-?

Partner has shown diamond shortness with spade support, and you have Qxxxx Ax xxx xxx. Are you on for slam? Maybe, but we had a very easy plan over a diamond splinter (4H cuebid and respect partner's decision), but now we are in a much more dangerous spot.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 4S
#2 My plan was either to bid 1S or to bid 2NT, depend on system.
All in all, my original plan would have been to make a strong invite,
after I discovered a fit, I dont invite, I bid game, i.e. the fit made my
hand worth a game bid.
#3 2S - 12-14/15
3S - 15-17/18
4S - 18/19-20

Basically 2S showes approx. the same as a weak NT, 3S showes approx.
the same as a strong NT, 4S showes approx. the same as a 2NT jump rebid.

With kind regards
Marlowe


PS: As was pointed out, 3S showes an unbal. hand, i.e. it showes 4 clubs,
4 spades.

[pooltuna]

bd71, on Dec 26 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

Opponents do not bid.
P-1♣
1♠-??

3 questions:
1. What's your bid?
2. How do you re-evaluate your playing strength after finding the spade fit?
3. What are appropriate playing strength ranges for various spade responses here (2S, 3S, 4S)?

---

1)4♠
2)I don't bid 2NT
3)take away the 2 Q and that is a maximum 2♠ bid; take away one the Q and that is a 3♠ bid; you are looking at a 4♠ bid

[Jlall]

I think Roger is going a bit overboard, I would say a lot of/most 4432 19 counts bid 4S (maybe he thinks this also, but he didn't say it explicitly). I basically agree with him though. Most 4333 19s and 4432 18s bid 3S though.

This hand is borderline, it is a very good 18 because it is completely prime (no jacks), and has some useful spot cards (T8 of hearts), as well as good trumps. At IMPs I would bid 4S, at MP it would basically depend on my partner. Red I think bidding game is probably warranted; partner is a lot less likely to bid with a bad hand over 1C when he is vul at MP (the risk of -200 is great), especially when both opps have passed. White at MP I'd let partner off the hook since I think he should be responding quite aggressively in that position. There are some people who don't understand the difference the vulnerability makes when responding, and opposite them you should maybe just bid 3S.

If your range for bidding 4S becomes too wide then good slam bidding will become difficult though, but with a hand this prime I think the risk of missing game is the greatest concern, and if partner does press on to slam then the primeness of my hand becomes even more important, so I won't be ashamed.

[jdonn]

It's fine to bid 1-4 on certain balanced 18-19 hands. This one is borderline. However, I really hate any style that forces you to bid 4 on all balanced 18-19 hands.

Or 2NT Fluffy!

[mike777]

bd71, on Dec 26 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

Opponents do not bid.
P-1♣
1♠-??

3 questions:
1. What's your bid?
2. How do you re-evaluate your playing strength after finding the spade fit?
3. What are appropriate playing strength ranges for various spade responses here (2S, 3S, 4S)?

---

1) does 4s show 4s
2) huge hand
3) no side shortness



ok.....4s

[EricK]

It would be nice if we had a way to explore for a 4-4 ♥ fit at MP, before committing ourselves to ♠.

[TylerE]

I like 2N here to not deny a fit, so I can just bid 2N on this, then I play a sort of two way checkback:

3♣ is NMF style, showing 5M
3♦ is checkback-ish, to allow opener to show 4 card support on the way to 3N or somewhere else.

[bd71]

rogerclee, on Dec 26 2009, 01:20 PM, said:

It is common among good American 2/1 players to play that:

2S = single raise (12-14 balanced most frequently, can have shortness, something like AKxx xxxx Q KQxx would be a maximum 2S raise IMO)
3D/3H = invitational splinters (you can also throw in extremely strong splinters into these bids)
3S = 18-19 bal, or a hand worth the equivalent (I would bid 3S with AKxx xx xx AKJxx and AKxx K KQx Qxxxx), not forcing
4C = 6+C, 4+S, extras but not extremely strong
4D/4H = splinter, slam try
4S = better than 18-19 balanced but doesn't want to splinter. common hands would be strong 4225 hands as well as 4135 hands that don't want to splinter

You might ask why you would not want to force to game with 18-19 balanced and 4 card support. Well, these days it is very common for people to respond on sub-minimum values, and anyway most 6 counts and some 7s shouldn't accept the invite, and your slam auctions are also better when you have shown your values at the 3 level rather than the 4 level.

In this response system, what would you do with an invitational but semi-balanced hands with which you can't splinter but wouldn't open 1N? Say a 4225 16/17-pointer?

[wank]

they're opening normally 1NT with those hands. if for whatever reason they elect not to open 1NT they're upgrading/downgrading (mainly the former) to make it a 3 or 2S bid

[Old York]

bd71, on Dec 26 2009, 04:57 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

Opponents do not bid.
P-1♣
1♠-??

3 questions:
1. What's your bid?
2. How do you re-evaluate your playing strength after finding the spade fit?
3. What are appropriate playing strength ranges for various spade responses here (2S, 3S, 4S)?

---

1. What's your bid?
4♠

2. How do you re-evaluate your playing strength after finding the spade fit?
Add 1 extra point for Diamond doubleton - switch to Losing Trick Count

3. What are appropriate playing strength ranges for various spade responses here (2S, 3S, 4S)?
2♠ shows 7 losers - 3♠ shows 6 losers - 4♠ shows 5 losers
(2 ♠ may be 3 card support, but 3♠/4♠ always shows 4+ card support)

Your losers are: ♠A, ♥AQ, ♦K, ♣K
It is highly likely that responder holds 2 of these cards, making 4♠ a reasonable contract

Tony

[jh51]

I find the discussion here interesting, as many of you disagree with the mutiple national championship winners who bid this hand for the bidding box article in the January 2007 bulletin. In one case, responders bid was 1♥ was a transfer showing 4+ spades, but in each case opener rebid 3♠ to show 18-19 HCP. Responder has a rotten 7 HCP (4 little spades and 2 Queens) and so judges to pass. This was also the recommended action by the author of the article, and 3♠ was the result awarded the maximum score.

[Old York]

jh51, on Jan 1 2010, 05:23 PM, said:

I find the discussion here interesting, as many of you disagree with the mutiple national championship winners who bid this hand for the bidding box article in the January 2007 bulletin. In one case, responders bid was 1♥ was a transfer showing 4+ spades, but in each case opener rebid 3♠ to show 18-19 HCP. Responder has a rotten 7 HCP (4 little spades and 2 Queens) and so judges to pass. This was also the recommended action by the author of the article, and 3♠ was the result awarded the maximum score.

With 5 raw losers and the prospect of a 4-4 or 5-4 Spade fit with 2 cover cards in dummy, I would never consider 3♠ to be a good contract, even though partner was a passed hand

4♠ is not guaranteed, but it is a reasonable contract and, imho, should be bid
19 total points + 7hcp = Game

Tony
Edit:
Could someone post all 4 hands? Or run a simulation after ppp1♣
North must hold
♠xxxx ♥QJx ♦QJx ♣Jxx at worst? so 2NT/3NT maybe?
1♣-1NT-2NT-??

[hanp]

Bidding around shortness is 80's/90's? I would have guessed earlier.