[Cyberyeti]

If we give partner the sort of flattish 6-7 count he IMO is most likely to hold, x leads to a 4-3 fit in ♥ or ♣, 1N plays there as will 2♦. From that point of view I prefer not to double. Whether I bid 1N or 2♦ would depend on the nature of my overcalls by partnership agreement.

[helene_t]

Jlall, on Jan 5 2010, 09:44 PM, said:

When I read this, I coulda sworn the shape was 2452...was it edited?

No, at least no since MikeH's first post.

[Jlall]

Ok, well I thought it was 2452, guess I was on drugs when I read this the first time, I think 1N is fine with 2353... 2D is still terrible though!

[pooltuna]

Jlall, on Jan 5 2010, 04:11 PM, said:

Ok, well I thought it was 2452, guess I was on drugs when I read this the first time, I think 1N is fine with 2353... 2D is still terrible though!

quick... hurry ... EyeMasters is having a sale

[Fluffy]

I am impressed, seems that we are going down to explain what a double shows lol.

this is what I teach to beginners, double shows:

3+ hearts
3+ diamonds
3+ clubs

12+ HCP

As opposed to what 2♦ show:

6+♦

12+ HCP

So if we couldn't take 1NT into account, we have to chose between lieing or telling the truth, the answer is plain obvious.

[bluecalm]

My first impression was that 1NT is terrible but now I actually like it. Nothing intelligent to add. It just seems that it works well when I went through the hands.

Quote

As opposed to what 2♦ show:

6+♦

12+ HCP

Yeah... While watching past vugraphs yesterday (my greates addiction recently) I saw Lauria overcalling 2♦ opposite unpassed partner and being vulnerable with:
- ATx T987632 Txx, he should take some beginner lessons :-), or maybe he just likes straight flushes... (Vanderbil final 2004, segment 1, board 9, maybe it was a misclick by vugraph, but that seems unlikely seeing rest of the bidding/play). I also saw them overcalling 2♦ with all sort of crap like : xxxx A KJTxxx JTx on regular basis but I am yet to see them (or any other world class player) overcall 2♦ on 5card suit with 5-3-3-2 shape. That just won't happen. I actually doubt 5card overcall is in the menu at all. Axx KQxx AJxxx x is double opposite 1♠ for Italians all day long (they play equal level conversion). I don't know about A KQxx x AJxxx though, it would be very useful to actually hear some world class players talking about it more and not just making wild guesses from seeing hands without commentary/knowing their agreements.

It seems that not everybody shares this view though : http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...x-and-more.html

This maybe some ammunition for 2♦ bidders

[gwnn]

you are completely misreading Ulf Nilsson if you think he would 2♦ on this hand.

[bluecalm]

Quote

you are completely misreading Ulf Nilsson if you think he would 2♦ on this hand.

Lol, I've never thought he would. I am just talking about 5card overcalls in general. Overcalling on the OP hand is ridiculous I stated it many times in this thread.

[Free]

I'd bid 1NT, although I wouldn't mind Dbl. I knew that Dbl would get more votes on this forums Both Dbl and 1NT will probably get you to a similar spot if LHO raises.

Imo 2♦ on this hand is plain awful. 2♦ should be a 5 card only if there's absolutely no other decent call available and you want to get your suit in. Here you have 2 good alternatives and not a great suit anyway!

[Codo]

gwnn, on Jan 6 2010, 01:46 PM, said:

you are completely misreading Ulf Nilsson if you think he would 2♦ on this hand.

Of course he would not- the suit is too strong.

[helene_t]

Stupid question: I knew that dbl would get more votes than 1NT, and I would dbl for that very reason myself: I think partner will expect me to dbl with this hand.

But why is dbl better than 1NT? Does 1NT overstate the strength of the hand?

I think 1NT is more likely to get us to the right partscore if we play a 2♣ response as natural, which is my preferred treatment although everybody seems to disagree with me so I am probably wrong. 1NT may be the wrong partscore if it is passed out, but only if partner has a 4-card diamonds which he would bid in response to a dbl, or if a 4-3 fit hearts or clubs plays better than 1NT. If 1NT gets doubled and p doesn't run, we can bid 2♦.

[Codo]

Mikeh puts it quite well: There is no clear right or wrong bid with this hand.
All 4 possible bids (pass, double, 1 NT and even 2 ♦) can be huge winners or losers.

But double is most likely to earn you the most imps/lose the fewest imps opposite as many hands as possible and this is not close.

1 NT is wrong if you have to play 3 NT or maybe even if you have to play 1 NT if partner has no help in spades.
It is equal if partner has 5 hearts or help in spades, so it is seldom a winner often the same score and too often a loser (compared to X).

To play 2 Club as natural over a 1 NT wins if you can play 2 clubs. Quite a small target. To use this bid for a better structure must be a huge winner.

I prefer to play simple transfer after our 1 NT overcall with transfer to their suit is stayman. Easy and often good enough but other methods are obviously fine too.

[zenko]

I agree 1NT is by far the best bid. If once in a blue moon I go for a number so be it.

Regarding should 1NT-2C be natural I think it makes a lot of sense to play it natural if the opening bid was a major suit, and if it was a minor to play "system on" (Stayman+transfers).

[Fluffy]

helene_t, on Jan 6 2010, 12:07 PM, said:

Stupid question: I knew that dbl would get more votes than 1NT, and I would dbl for that very reason myself: I think partner will expect me to dbl with this hand.

But why is dbl better than 1NT? Does 1NT overstate the strength of the hand?

I think 1NT is more likely to get us to the right partscore if we play a 2♣ response as natural, which is my preferred treatment although everybody seems to disagree with me so I am probably wrong. 1NT may be the wrong partscore if it is passed out, but only if partner has a 4-card diamonds which he would bid in response to a dbl, or if a 4-3 fit hearts or clubs plays better than 1NT. If 1NT gets doubled and p doesn't run, we can bid 2♦.

my 2 cents:

I play everything natural to be able to play 2♣ and to be able to play 2♥ from the right hand (not right on thios particular deal, but often better to put the strong hand on lead)


The reason I dislike 1NT is because RHO has 5+ spades and we only have one stopper.

[pooltuna]

helene_t, on Jan 6 2010, 07:07 AM, said:

Stupid question: I knew that dbl would get more votes than 1NT, and I would dbl for that very reason myself: I think partner will expect me to dbl with this hand.

But why is dbl better than 1NT? Does 1NT overstate the strength of the hand?

I think 1NT is more likely to get us to the right partscore if we play a 2♣ response as natural, which is my preferred treatment although everybody seems to disagree with me so I am probably wrong. 1NT may be the wrong partscore if it is passed out, but only if partner has a 4-card diamonds which he would bid in response to a dbl, or if a 4-3 fit hearts or clubs plays better than 1NT. If 1NT gets doubled and p doesn't run, we can bid 2♦.

for me it is understrength. While I play 1NT as 15-17 I play a NT overcall as slightly stronger a good 16 to 18.

[jdonn]

helene_t, on Jan 6 2010, 07:07 AM, said:

Stupid question: I knew that dbl would get more votes than 1NT, and I would dbl for that very reason myself: I think partner will expect me to dbl with this hand.

But why is dbl better than 1NT? Does 1NT overstate the strength of the hand?

I think 1NT is more likely to get us to the right partscore if we play a 2♣ response as natural, which is my preferred treatment although everybody seems to disagree with me so I am probably wrong. 1NT may be the wrong partscore if it is passed out, but only if partner has a 4-card diamonds which he would bid in response to a dbl, or if a 4-3 fit hearts or clubs plays better than 1NT. If 1NT gets doubled and p doesn't run, we can bid 2♦.

My main qualm with 1NT is that if my stopper is Kx, which is just one stopper and also can't be held up, then I want a bit better hand given that I have a sound alternative in double. But 1NT is not a bad bid.

[mikeh]

helene_t, on Jan 6 2010, 07:07 AM, said:

Stupid question: I knew that dbl would get more votes than 1NT, and I would dbl for that very reason myself: I think partner will expect me to dbl with this hand.

But why is dbl better than 1NT? Does 1NT overstate the strength of the hand?

I think 1NT is more likely to get us to the right partscore if we play a 2♣ response as natural, which is my preferred treatment although everybody seems to disagree with me so I am probably wrong. 1NT may be the wrong partscore if it is passed out, but only if partner has a 4-card diamonds which he would bid in response to a dbl, or if a 4-3 fit hearts or clubs plays better than 1NT. If 1NT gets doubled and p doesn't run, we can bid 2♦.

I'm basically with Josh on this one. Kx is a tenuous holding especially when we are minimum with no source of tricks....AQJxx in diamonds would make 1N more attractive since one dummy entry and 10x or even xxx in diamonds gives us play for 5 winners in the suit.

1N is far better than 2♦, imo, but still far worse than double....which, tho imperfect, seems to be the best compromise between safety and aggression.

As for 2♣ natural, there will always be hands on which one would wish for a specific meaning for a call, but I am with the vast majority of players who think that 2♣ as stayman (whether purely stayman or part of a comprehensive package where it doesn't promise a major) is preferable.

I say that knowing that the odds that the partnership has a 4-4 major suit fit are reduced after a 1N overcall of 1M. Reduced does not mean eliminated, and the rewards for finding the 4-4 major suit fit (which include partscore wins as well as games) outweigh, imo, the relatively few hands on which we successfully play 2♣, when the call is natural.

Bear in mind that on some hands where advancer wishes to play 2♣, that choice will prove poor....partner has some 3=3=5=2 and clubs don't break but the diamonds were running. On others, the opps will compete. On still others, we can successfully go to 3♣...most have a way to get to 3minor if they can't get to 2minor. So while the natural 2♣ will be a winner sometimes, it is not a perfect device even when available.

[Fluffy]

I disagree mike, 2♣ will be a fantastic improvement when we are very weak, we will get the entries to use those tenaces and won't have to play the suits from the strong hand.

On the other hand saying that finding a 4-4 major fit for partscore is an improvement over a 5-3 fit in clubs sounds foolish, when you don't find the major fit you are in heavy trouble, but when you end up palying 2♣ you are much better placed on a 5-2 fit.

The fact that 2♣ ain't stayman doesn't mean we cannot use 2♠ as stayman to find the proper game of course.

[wank]

though i think double is the best call normally on this shape, i think 1NT has 1 major advantage that noone's mentioned on this particular hand. whatever contract you finish, it's likely to better played by this hand.

there are some awkward hand combinations when partner might be forced to bid NT wrong-siding it over a takeout double. Say partner's hand is Qxxx KJx Jxx KQx, what would you have him bid? I suppose it would be 2NT, but even if he starts with 2S, over 3D, he's got to bid 3NT. 3NT by P is unlikely to make, whereas 3NT by you is likely cold.

similarly, if partner has 5H, you'd prefer to play the contract after a transfer. The only time you lose out vis a vis a takeout double is when partner has 5 clubs, or when a moysian 2H plays better a level higher and from the wrong hand.

with Ax of spades double is much more appealing.

[OleBerg]

wank, on Jan 6 2010, 06:55 PM, said:

though i think double is the best call normally on this shape, i think 1NT has 1 major advantage that noone's mentioned on this particular hand. whatever contract you finish, it's likely to better played by this hand.

there are some awkward hand combinations when partner might be forced to bid NT wrong-siding it over a takeout double. Say partner's hand is Qxxx KJx Jxx KQx, what would you have him bid? I suppose it would be 2NT, but even if he starts with 2S, over 3D, he's got to bid 3NT. 3NT by P is unlikely to make, whereas 3NT by you is likely cold.

similarly, if partner has 5H, you'd prefer to play the contract after a transfer. The only time you lose out vis a vis a takeout double is when partner has 5 clubs, or when a moysian 2H plays better a level higher and from the wrong hand.

with Ax of spades double is much more appealing.

Disagree about the wrongsiding thing. I would prefer any contract to be played by the overcallers partner.

At a glance, this even seems to be the case with your example hand.