[rogerclee]

What does the last bid mean in each of these auctions? I was surprised there was so much variance in the answers I got.

1S 2N P 3S
P 3N

1S 2N P 3S
P 4m

1S 2N P 3S
P 4C P 4D

1S 2N P 4D

1S 2N P 3S
P 4m P 4H

As a bonus, how would you bid these two hands after west opens 1S

void xx Jxxxx AT9xxx
QJx AKQx AKxxx Q

[Codo]

1: yes I have a spade stopper
2. No I do not have a spade stopper
3. Then we play diamonds (non forcing)
4. pre with diamonds
5. SI with m Fit

[Bende]

1. Spade stopper
2. No spade stopper
3. Slam invitational with diamonds
4. Invitational
5. Slam invitational in the bid minor

[fromageGB]

Apologies, I completely misread who bid the 3♠.
If you read my original post you were probably wondering what I had been taking for Christmas !

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2009-December-30, 11:25

[cherdanno]

rogerclee, on Dec 29 2009, 03:52 AM, said:

What does the last bid mean in each of these auctions? I was surprised there was so much variance in the answers I got.

1S 2N P 3S
P 3N

1S 2N P 3S
P 4m

1S 2N P 3S
P 4C P 4D

1S 2N P 4D

1S 2N P 3S
P 4m P 4H

As a bonus, how would you bid these two hands after west opens 1S

void xx Jxxxx AT9xxx
QJx AKQx AKxxx Q

3S is game forcing. So:
1. Spade stopper (maybe not best, that's certainly what it is without discussion)
2. My better suit (4C with no preference)
3. Slam try in D
4. To play, but 2N-bidder is allowed to bid more with a good hand of course.
5. Cue for m

I am sure I failed the test so I do need the extra credit:
2N 3S 4C 4D
Now it depends, but especially vulnerable I would be tempted to just bid 5D with the North hand (bad suit), if I was sick enough to bid 2N. Not vulnerable I would cue 4S and South would keycard -> 7D.
So a 5 or 7 hand for me!

[PaulLanier]

(1) Since 3♠ is a cuebid, it is forcing and asks for further description (partner's better minor). I would take the 3NT rebid as describing no preference, asking advancer to choose the minor.

(2) The 4m response is the better minor.

(3) I would take 4♦ as first-round control of diamonds, agreeing clubs as trump.

(4) 4♦ is the better minor.

(5) I would take 4♥ as first-round control of hearts, agreeing clubs as trump.

Regards, Paul

[PaulLanier]

The two hands:
(1) 3♣ NVUL, 2♣ VUL. But I would not quarrel 2NT here.
(2) Double, followed by 2♦ after partner's expected 2♣. I don't think this hand is going anywhere unless partner answers 2♥ (or 3♥ if pard owns the remaining HCP with some distribution).
Regards, Paul

[jdonn]

1 - Spades stopped (and not significant extras).
2- Spades not stopped. 4♦ shows 6-5.
3 - We have a diamond fit. Forcing.
4 - Preemptive (wtf?)
5 - Never thought about it. I believe it should be a cuebid since 3♥ last round was forcing, and we couldn't have hearts and bid 3♠ looking for 3NT since partner can bid 3NT over 3♥ anyway.

I bid those two hands:
(1♠) 2NT - 3♠ -
4♣ - 4♦ -
4♠ - 4NT -
blah

Agree with Ken's post below. At least the first 8 words.

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure what real people do here, but it seems to me that:

3♠ = general force

3NT by 2NT'er shows a spade card for 3NT. If he cannot bid 3NT, then he indicates his shortness (4♣ = heart shortness, 4♦ = diamond shortness).

If 2NT'er shows a stiff heart (4♣), then 4♦ agrees diamonds and anything else agrees clubs.

If 2NT'er shows a stiff spade (4♦), then 4♥ flags clubs (maybe as RKCB) and 4♠ flags diamonds; 4NT as choice.

A direct leap by advancer is natural, obstructing.

With the two hands:

(1♠)-2NT-P-3♠-
P-4♦(short spade)-P-4♠(diamond flag, slammish)-
P-4NT(something good)-P-5♥(cue, grand try)-
P-6♦(enough already)-all pass

Something like that.

General principles in play (my defaults):

1. Cue is forcing (duh)
2. A person who shows two known suits usually bids shortness as his third-suit call
3. Flags are used to identify fit in unknown fit scenario, if needed

[Jlall]

I don't think 3S is a GF, and think you should bid 3S when you have an invite in a minor (because 4m is mixed/preemptive/whatever).

As such I think 4C over 3S just shows a minimum, and 4D over that 4C bid is NF.

I don't see why we need 3S as a GF, sure it's better if we have slam but they've opened and the ranges are quite wide already and we have no invitational bid, so I'd much prefer to have more accurate game bidding in this situation.

[aguahombre]

Jlall, on Dec 29 2009, 10:49 AM, said:

I don't think 3S is a GF, and think you should bid 3S when you have an invite in a minor (because 4m is mixed/preemptive/whatever).

As such I think 4C over 3S just shows a minimum, and 4D over that 4C bid is NF.

I don't see why we need 3S as a GF, sure it's better if we have slam but they've opened and the ranges are quite wide already and we have no invitational bid, so I'd much prefer to have more accurate game bidding in this situation.

So, when 3S is an invite with a minor, the follow-ups by the unusual NT hand are?

Assume 2NT is topped out at very weak o/c range or a mountain (dual range).

Frags would show max? 4NT mountain? 4d shows? these are questions in search of answers, no other agenda here.

[Vilgan]

1) Yes I have a spade card (might only be half of a stopper tho.. Qx or maybe even just the Q which will protect your Kx or Jxx)

2) minimum/not good for game. agree that 4♦ shows a 6/5 hand

3) preference opposite a weaker response.

4) preemptive

5) cue bid with strong SI even opposite minimum (most likely wants a spade singleton out of the overcaller's hand).

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Dec 29 2009, 12:49 PM, said:

I don't think 3S is a GF, and think you should bid 3S when you have an invite in a minor (because 4m is mixed/preemptive/whatever).

As such I think 4C over 3S just shows a minimum, and 4D over that 4C bid is NF.

I don't see why we need 3S as a GF, sure it's better if we have slam but they've opened and the ranges are quite wide already and we have no invitational bid, so I'd much prefer to have more accurate game bidding in this situation.

I think that this works, but then you almost have to bump the bids up by one.

3NT = offer to play
4♣ = any minimum
4♦ = max short spade
4♥ = max short heart

Then, 4♥/4♠ as flags for the minors.

That works OK.

It just seems like stopping on a dime at four of a minor is so tight a goal, especially when the likely scenario is that the major pattern and the type of minor honor pattern will determine whether game makes or not, and there is little in the way of space to explore. That said, I could live with the structure as set forth above.

[nige1]

rogerclee, on Dec 29 2009, 03:52 AM, said:

What does the last bid mean in each of these auctions? I was surprised there was so much variance in the answers I got.

• (1♠) 2N (_P) 3♠
  (_P) 3N = ♠ (half-)stopped
  
  
  
• (1♠) 2N (_P) 3♠
  (_P) 4m = Better minor no extras.
  
  
  
• (1♠) 2N (_P) 3♠
  (_P) 4♣ (_P) 4♦ = Preference highly invitational but NF.
  
  
  
• (1♠) 2N (_P) 4♦ = Pre-emptive.
  
  
  
• (1♠) 2N (_P) 3♠
  (_P) 4m (_P) 4♥ = sets ♣ (4♠ = sets ♦)

rogerclee, on Dec 29 2009, 03:52 AM, said:

As a bonus, how would you bid these two hands after west opens 1S

♠- ♥ xx ♦ Jxxxx ♣ AT9xxx (1♠) 2N 4♣ 5♣
♠ QJx ♥ AKQx ♦ AKxxx ♣ Q ---- 3♠ 4♠ 5♦
Not a good hand for these methods. Although with more discussion, 4N instead of 5♣ could mean something.

[MarkDean]

Because the title of the thread is "Unusual 2N," do I have to overcall 2NT with the north hand in the bonus question? I would pass.

I would tend to play that 3♠ creates a game force, but I also think 4m directly over 2NT is more constructive than most people.

[gnasher]

kenrexford, on Dec 30 2009, 12:13 AM, said:

I think that this works, but then you almost have to bump the bids up by one.

3NT = offer to play
4♣ = any minimum
4♦ = max short spade
4♥ = max short heart

Then, 4♥/4♠ as flags for the minors.

"Almost have to"? I can't remember ever bidding, or even considering, a slam after this start, so I don't think slam bidding should be high on your list of priorities.

Whilst this scheme may help us on the once-in-a-lifetime slam hand, it will much more often help the opponents by helping them with the lead if it's just a game or partscore hand.

[whereagles]

Not a problem to me, as I have a clear agreement on the 3♠ cue: game force, fit somewhere, natural follow-ups & common sense.

[kenrexford]

gnasher, on Dec 30 2009, 04:19 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Dec 30 2009, 12:13 AM, said:

I think that this works, but then you almost have to bump the bids up by one.

3NT = offer to play
4♣ = any minimum
4♦ = max short spade
4♥ = max short heart

Then, 4♥/4♠ as flags for the minors.

"Almost have to"? I can't remember ever bidding, or even considering, a slam after this start, so I don't think slam bidding should be high on your list of priorities.

Whilst this scheme may help us on the once-in-a-lifetime slam hand, it will much more often help the opponents by helping them with the lead if it's just a game or partscore hand.

When's the last time you heard 3♠ in this sequence? The fact that it is rare is not that compelling a reason. The reason I would find it compelling is that the difference between game and slam for minors is so low. One card of pattern likely makes the difference.