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Idea that I think is new?

#1 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 00:59

Auctions like 1 p 1 p 4 show some strong 4-6 hand in 'standard' bidding, but I have never liked the bid. Not only do I rarely seem to get the right hand for it, but partner doesn't know which other suit you are short in, which seems important. And do you need a control in the other suit that you are not short in? How good of a minor suit do you need? What's the big gain anyway? I guess in theory it can help you find slam in the minor, but keycard isn't even for the minor and I've never actually seen it happen anyway.

In short I think that bid is almost a total waste. I don't have too many fantastic ideas about what else it should be, but my best thought is it could be a relay showing a void splinter.

1 - 1 -
4: Splinter with a void in either red suit. 4 relay to ask which.

But since of course you don't have that much room over other combinations of suits, you would have to make the cheapest of the three side-suit double-jumps the relay bid, and if needed use another bid as the substitution for the bid the relay stole.

1 - 1 -
3: Splinter with a void in either black suit.
4: Club splinter
4: Spade splinter

Thoughts about my idea? (Perhaps it's too costly to take what may have been a cheap 'regular' splinter and move it higher, like spades in the last example?) Other ideas about a use for the 4m rebid? Or does anyone want to defend the standard meaning?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 01:21

I agree that the jump to 4m is not very useful. Can't remember the last time it came up.

An alternative might be to try to add a cheaper bid for the direct 4M raise to allow some cuebidding. Particularly in the auction 1-1, you have the three-level "mini-splinters" available too, so the "value raise to 4 with space for cuebids" could be more useful for 4. The issue is that like Josh pointed out, some sequences give you a lot more options than others and it's not clear how to come up with a good medium between "best" and "not too complicated."
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#3 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 01:24

Without saying the standard meaning is best, I'll remind you that for quite a few of us, jump reverses are splinters, so we can already use e.g. 1-1-3 for a singleton and 1-1-4 for a void. If that agreement is in effect, I would play the jump to 4 as 4=2=2=5 (and the jump to 4 as 4432/4333).

If you are using the jump reverses as mini-splinters or something else entirely, your idea looks reasonable.

In defense of the standard way, I am very fond of long suit slam tries after I open 1M (1-2-4 = 5-card club suit with 2 of the top 3 honours, so for slam we just need running clubs+running+spades+a stray control or two), since there are other ways to start cuebidding or show shortness (if you use 2-way game tries of some kind.) If I believe showing the 5-5 with a view toward 10 fast tricks plus an ace and a ruff is useful, I should also believe showing a 4-6 with a view toward doing the same thing is useful. I cannot remember actually finding a slam on a 4-6 hand like that, however.
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#4 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 02:43

Try 4C as assumed D-splinter(or the spl that's most problem in lower auctions) then other strong calls won't have D-short case. 4C must have clear control promise eg. 2xA with 1-loser/solid clubs.
The intent of high bid is to be well-defined else would have lower force. You do have a general force with S-fit another without S-fit?
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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 05:18

it came up recently once but my partner took it as clubs and a good hand :(

So what do you propose for the rare hands that used to bid 4m?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#6 User is offline   ulven 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 05:53

When I play natural I use 1C-1S; 4C as big balanced raise to 4M.
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#7 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 06:31

ulven, on Dec 27 2009, 10:53 PM, said:

When I play natural I use 1C-1S; 4C as big balanced raise to 4M.

Ditto this. Usually with the 6-4s I can just splinter and then cue.
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#8 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 09:02

Any changes in a system need to be done in a system context so consequently consider the auction 1m-1M. We need to define all rebids with support. In particular

simple raise
1-1-2
1-1-2
1-1-2
1-1-2

double raise
1-1-3
1-1-3
1-1-3
1-1-3

From here down all calls are at least game forcing.

direct game raise
1-1-4
1-1-4
1-1-4
1-1-4

splinters
1-1-3
1-1-3
1-1-3 see undefined
1-1-3 see undefined
1-1-3 see undefined
1-1-3 see undefined
1-1-4
1-1-4

6-4 hands
1-1-4
1-1-4
1-1-4
1-1-4

undefined (exclusion or possible splinter?)
1-1-4
1-1-4
1-1-4
1-1-4


There are 20 game forcing auctions grouped into 4 sections.
Questions
1)How are you going to define the currently undefined group?
2)Why aren't the 6-4 hands being splintered? Is there a strength/control difference? I.e. How would you bid y AQ92 AQ9753 z vs A32 AQ92 AQ975 3 vs A32 AQ92 AKQ97 3?
3)Are all the direct game raise hands balanced or semi-balanced?
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#9 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 09:17

Not a bad idea.

One thought, though. I would not necessarily reject the idea of 4 having the "standard meaning" simply because you connot know which suit is short and cannot use RKCB for the minor. These problems also could be fixed.

A simple one, after the ideal 1-P-1-P-4, would be for 4 to ask for the stiff and for 4 to be RKCB for clubs.

The "RKCB for clubs" alternative doesn't make any sense for the "solid clubs" folks, though, as the solid suit speaks for itself as to key cards.

On a general note, though, I obviously applaud stacking thoughts and evaluating how to do better in recurring auctions. The void-enabling stacking may well have merit.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2009-December-27, 10:36

Siegmund, on Dec 27 2009, 02:24 AM, said:

Without saying the standard meaning is best, I'll remind you that for quite a few of us, jump reverses are splinters, so we can already use e.g. 1-1-3 for a singleton and 1-1-4 for a void. If that agreement is in effect, I would play the jump to 4 as 4=2=2=5 (and the jump to 4 as 4432/4333).


I think 4 for me would be 4117, 5116 or 4(12)6 with Kx as the doubleton and say basically that the only cards that matter are the red aces and club/spade honours, my normal cuebidding style is any 1st/2nd except shortage in partner's suit, so this tells partner not to cue red kings. I don't play anything in the blackwood department that allows straight up asking for specific side suit kings and queens although we normally catch up later.

The structure we play (with a GF unbalanced 2N rebid) is:

1-1-4 = void (exclusion KC except 4 is rock bottom minimum)
1-1-2N-3-4 = 4315 or 4216
1-1-3 = x, x, AQ10xx, KQJxxx or similar type
1-1-3N = 4414 (open 1 with 4144)
1-1-2N-3-4 = 4225
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#11 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2010-January-04, 14:39

I used to worry about this, then I started playing transfer responses to 1C (with completion showing a weak NT) and suddenly found that I had more ways of raising spades than I knew what to do with...

Anyway, forgetting that bit for a moment, I like to play 1m - 1M - 4m as 3-7. Hands with 4-card support can usually be bid in some other way. The 3-7 shape is very difficult to show in standard methods.
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#12 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-January-04, 23:00

Cyberyeti, on Dec 27 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

Siegmund, on Dec 27 2009, 02:24 AM, said:

Without saying the standard meaning is best, I'll remind you that for quite a few of us, jump reverses are splinters, so we can already use e.g. 1-1-3 for a singleton and 1-1-4 for a void. If that agreement is in effect, I would play the jump to 4 as 4=2=2=5 (and the jump to 4 as 4432/4333).


I think 4 for me would be 4117, 5116 or 4(12)6 with Kx as the doubleton and say basically that the only cards that matter are the red aces and club/spade honours, my normal cuebidding style is any 1st/2nd except shortage in partner's suit, so this tells partner not to cue red kings. I don't play anything in the blackwood department that allows straight up asking for specific side suit kings and queens although we normally catch up later.

The structure we play (with a GF unbalanced 2N rebid) is:

1-1-4 = void (exclusion KC except 4 is rock bottom minimum)
1-1-2N-3-4 = 4315 or 4216
1-1-3 = x, x, AQ10xx, KQJxxx or similar type
1-1-3N = 4414 (open 1 with 4144)
1-1-2N-3-4 = 4225

How do you show 18-19 balanced when non-fitting? Do you have multiple-meaning reverses or do you use a Cole variant?
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#13 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2010-January-05, 03:47

Danny Kleinman calls the following "Four Strong Winds":

1m-1
3 = singleton unbid suit (4 relay)
3NT = natural
4 = no shortness
4 = void lower unbid suit
4 = void higher unbid suit

1m-1
3NT = natural
4 = singleton unbid suit (4 relay)
4 = no shortness
4 = void lower unbid suit
4 = void higher unbid suit

1-1
3NT = singleton unbid suit or strong 6-3 (4 relay)
4 = 4-5-2-2
4 = void
4 = natural
4 = void

Steven
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#14 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2010-January-05, 07:13

lowerline, on Jan 5 2010, 04:47 AM, said:

Danny Kleinman calls the following "Four Strong Winds":

1m-1
3 = singleton unbid suit (4 relay)
...

He wants to play 1m-1;-3( fit + unknown singleton)-3NT as natural?
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#15 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-January-05, 10:13

lowerline, on Jan 5 2010, 04:47 AM, said:

Danny Kleinman calls the following "Four Strong Winds":

1m-1
3 = singleton unbid suit (4 relay)
3NT = natural
4 = no shortness
4 = void lower unbid suit
4 = void higher unbid suit

1m-1
3NT = natural
4 = singleton unbid suit (4 relay)
4 = no shortness
4 = void lower unbid suit
4 = void higher unbid suit

1-1
3NT = singleton unbid suit or strong 6-3 (4 relay)
4 = 4-5-2-2
4 = void
4 = natural
4 = void

Steven

This seems totally backwards, the void should go through the relay since it's both more informative and less common.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#16 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2010-January-05, 10:40

@josh: the idea is nice. Agree that the 6-4 doesn't come very often. Still, I think I prefer 1m-1M-4m = 18-19 bal raise, purely on frequency grounds.
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#17 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-January-05, 10:59

How many of us would play a structure which gave up responder's ability to show shortness after a fit has been found? Such as...

1C-1H, 2H-3S (splinter)

or

1N-2C, 2S-4C (splinter)

After all, responder is entitled to have shortness, too.

Yet, most of these structures use 1m-1M, 4M or Kleinman's 2-under
(e.g. 1C-1S, 4D) and responder can't show shortness opposite the balanced 18-19.
It's a slam-killer.
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#18 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-January-05, 11:41

I have plenty of room opposite 18-19 balanced to find shortness most of the time because I rebid 3.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#19 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-January-05, 13:19

jdonn, on Jan 5 2010, 12:41 PM, said:

I have plenty of room opposite 18-19 balanced to find shortness most of the time because I rebid 3S.


Would you please list more of your structure? I saw that 1D-1H, 3S was an unspecified black void; perhaps that sequence is the exception.
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#20 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-January-05, 15:52

Oh. I think I see. You mean with the 18-19 balanced you jump raise 1m-1S, 3S.
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