[1eyedjack]

I should like to know the principles under which hands are generated in Goulash tourneys.

Is each hand pre-prepared manually by a human individual host who has access to all 4 hands and can deliberately skew them according to his Machiavellian taste?

Or do they use the computer's pseudo-random hand generator and then discard hands that have no 6 card suit (or similar rule)?

[Cascade]

I think the method of dealing would be up to the individual tournament host if they use predealt hands.

When I use predealt hands for my teaching sessions I use a computer dealer that constrains them to match the topic of the lession. I do not manually select or create the hands but that would be a possible alternative.

[1eyedjack]

Goulash tourneys seem to be growing in popularity. Perhaps it is just my perception. Personally I think they are a hoot. But invariably the dealing principles are undisclosed (ideally should be stated in the conditions of contest, for want of anywhere else to put them). If an algorithm is used to weed out hands in an otherwise random deal then I think that players should be informed of that algorithm. It may affect their bidding or play. If the hands are preselected by a human that would not be possible, but I think it would perhaps be courteous to mention the fact.

[xx1943]

Quote

1eyedjack

HI

IMO Gulash has nothing to do with bridge.

It is just for fun and entertainment like other funny things like bungee-jumping ....

So let people do what they want and don't try to be serious in any way.

In a social game, we play gulash last hands in an evening, if everybody is too tired or too drunk to play serious bridge.

Al

[Dwayne]

in the early days of BBO goulash I was speccing a friend in a Goulash tourney.

One hapless player at the end of board 10 declared:

"These hands sure are wild tonight".

dwaynesome.

[1eyedjack]

xx1943, on Jul 14 2004, 02:38 AM, said:

IMO Gulash has nothing to do with bridge.

Agreed. Relevant?

xx1943, on Jul 14 2004, 02:38 AM, said:

It is just for fun and entertainment like other funny things like bungee-jumping ....

Agreed. Does this mean that you should make no effort to do well?

xx1943, on Jul 14 2004, 02:38 AM, said:

So let people do what they want

Agreed. And if one of the things that they want to do is to know the procedure by which hands are generated, what is your objection?

xx1943, on Jul 14 2004, 02:38 AM, said:

In a social game, we play gulash last hands in an evening, if everybody is too tired or too drunk to play serious bridge.

Agreed. And in that event you know how the hands have been generated, as you were party to or present at the deal.

[hrothgar]

1eyedjack, on Jul 14 2004, 08:57 AM, said:

Goulash tourneys seem to be growing in popularity. Perhaps it is just my perception. Personally I think they are a hoot. But invariably the dealing principles are undisclosed (ideally should be stated in the conditions of contest, for want of anywhere else to put them). If an algorithm is used to weed out hands in an otherwise random deal then I think that players should be informed of that algorithm. It may affect their bidding or play. If the hands are preselected by a human that would not be possible, but I think it would perhaps be courteous to mention the fact.

Comment the first: I see nothing wrong with analyze the goulash algorithm to try to gain an "edge".

Comment the second: I see no reason why anyone should provide you with the specific implementation of the goulash algorithm.

Comment the third: If the goulash algorithm is provided to anyone, than equal access should be granted to everyone.

[xx1943]

1eyedjack, on Jul 14 2004, 12:17 PM, said:

what is your objection?

Hi

No objection at all. But imo also no matter that is really important.

Al

[1eyedjack]

hrothgar, on Jul 14 2004, 12:39 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jul 14 2004, 08:57 AM, said:

Goulash tourneys seem to be growing in popularity.  Perhaps it is just my perception.  Personally I think they are a hoot.  But invariably the dealing principles are undisclosed (ideally should be stated in the conditions of contest, for want of anywhere else to put them).  If an algorithm is used to weed out hands in an otherwise random deal then I think that players should be informed of that algorithm.  It may affect their bidding or play.  If the hands are preselected by a human that would not be possible, but I think it would perhaps be courteous to mention the fact.

Comment the first: I see nothing wrong with analyze the goulash algorithm to try to gain an "edge".

Comment the second: I see no reason why anyone should provide you with the specific implementation of the goulash algorithm.

Comment the third: If the goulash algorithm is provided to anyone, than equal access should be granted to everyone.

Certainly I do not seek an edge that would not be available generally. Indeed I suggested that the principles be posted in the conditions of contest, and those conditions would be generally available to all.

As to whether they should be available to all as opposed to available to none, that is an interesting question. On the face of it either method seems fair as all contestants are treated equally (unless perhaps one of the players has inside knowledge of the algorithm, which is quite possible).

But the game is about rewarding skill as well as being fair. Take away the potential for rewarding skill and you take away, for some anyway, an element of the enjoyment of the game. In a normal, truly random game, it is acknowledged that mastery of the odds is a skill worthy of reward. In a goulash you have the opportunity to replicate that skill by publishing the algorithm, or deny that skill by concealing it. That, in a nutshell, is the argument in favour of its publication.

I suspect that whether I would find the knowledge worthwhile depends upon the complexity of the algorithm. I shall not know the answer to that, of course, unless and until it is published.

And to those for whom this subject provides no interest: go away and vacate this thread. Different things interest different people. The subject is not off-topic, and the appropriate response if you find a topic that does not interest you is no response, rather than cluttering up the bandwidth with comments that you are not interested.

[1eyedjack]

BTW, to those who say it is pointless being concerned or serious about Goulash tourneys, as I write there is a Goulash tourney taking place (#975) which advertises the following:
#975 Ind. GOULASH DISCO LAND
Entry fee $1.00
"BBO LAND TOURNEY SERIOUS"
"AWARDS PRIZES RANKS _POINTS" (sic)