Simplified Meckwell Precision system (for students
#1
Posted 2009-December-10, 14:29
1C = 16+ (except 16 or 20-21 Balenced), any distribution
1D = 0-7
1H = 8-11 <- ***
1S = 12+, 5+S
1N = 12+, 5+C
2C = 12+, 5+D
2D = 12+, 5+H
2H = 14+, Balenced
2S = 12+, 4441
2N = 12-13, Balenced
3C = 12+, any solid suit
3D = 12+, semi-solid H
3H = 12+, semi-solid S
3S = 12+, semi-solid minor
over 1C-1D: (0-7)
1M = 4+, F1, may have longer minor:
1S = 0-7 4+S; 1N = 0-5 any shap; 2C = 6-7 deny 3+M; 2D = 5-7 3 card sup
2M = 0-4 4+M; 3X = 5-7 SPL; 4X = GF SPL; 2N = GF 4+M
3M = 5-7 4+M
1C-1D-1M-2C: 2D = non GF waiting, others = GF
1C-1D-1M-1N: 2m = NF, 3m = F1, 2N=GF with longer minor
1N = 17-19 system on
2m = 5+m NF, deny 4+M
2H = force 2S, GF hands: 2N=24+, 3X = GF natural
2S = 55+ minors
2N = 22-23
3m = INV 6+m
3N = to play
over 1C-1H: (8-11, any shape)
1S/2m/2H = natural, 5+ card suit, natural followup
1N = 17-19 or 24+, system on
2S = 4441 any short, 2N ask short, 3C/D/H/S=D/H/S/C
2N = 22-23, system on
over 1C-1S: (12+, 5+S), natural follow ups
1N = waiting, usually balenced, could be 4441
2m/2H/2S = natural, nautral followup
over 1C-1N (12+ 5+C)
2C = waiting, RSP use natural rebid
2D/2M/2N = natural
3C = set trump
Over 1C-2C (12+ 5+D)
2D = waiting, not promise support
2H/2S/3C = natural
2N = nat
3D = set trump
over 1C -2D (12+ 5+H)
2H = waiting
2S/3m = nat
2N = nat
3H = set trump
Over 1C-2S (12+ 4441)
2N = R
3C/3D/3H/3S = short D/H/S/C
next step asking range (12-13/14-15/16+)
after that:
4C = force 4D, then 4M/4N/5m = slam try
4D = force 4H, then pass/bid = sign off
4H/S/N = RKC in low/mid/high suit
same system applies when opener show 4441
Over 1C-2H (14+ BAL)
2S = 5+S: 2N/3C = no fit/fit
2N = 5+H: 3C/3D = no fit/fit
3C = stayman
3D = D
3M = C
Over 1C-2N (12-13): system on
Over 1C-3C:
3D or the suit = asking
stpe 1 = 0 ctl
step 2 = 1
step 3 = 2
step 4 = 3
new suit after that = CAB (control asking bid)
Over 1C-3D/3H (semi-solid H/S)
opener usually accept, start Q bidding
1D = 11-15 2+D (11-13 for balenced)
1M = 4+ F1
1N = 7-10
2C = F1 not GF
2D = limit+
2M = 54+ in maj, S longer
2N = 11-12
3C = weak with both minor
3M = weak
3N = 13-15
over 1D-2D:
2H = 11-13 bal
2S = max, unbal
2N = max, semi-bal
1M = 11-15, use normal 2/1 system
1N = 14-16, use same 2/1 system
2C = 11-15, 6+C
2D = ask
2H = any 4 card Maj, 2S ask:
2N/3C = mini with H/S
3D/3H = max with H/S
2S = max, unbal
2N = max bal
3C mini
3D = max with 4+D
3M = 65+
2M = NF
2N = force 3C, to play or 2 suited GF
pass = to play 3C
3D = D+H
3H = H+S
3S = S+D
3C = force 3D, to play or GF 1 suited
pass = to play
3M = 6+M GF
3N = 6+D
3D = INV with D
3M = INV with M
3N = to play
4C = weak
4D = RKC for C
4M = to play
2D = 11-15 3 suited, could be 5431, short D
2M = to play (convert 2H to 2S with 4315)
2N = ask
3C = mini, 3D ask
3H = 3415
3S = 4315
3N = 4414
3D = max, 4414
3H = max, 3415
3S = max, 4315
3N = mini, 5440
4C = max, 5440
after asking, 3 suited slam try system on
3C = to play
3D/3M/4C = inv
3N/4M/5C = to play
2M = wk2
2N = 20-21
#2
Posted 2009-December-13, 19:15
I ask because for example Greco - Hampson who uses simplified Meckwell play that 1C - 1NT is hearts according to their convention card.
#3
Posted 2009-December-13, 20:39
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)
Santa Fe Precision ♣ published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail ♣. 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified ♣ (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary ♣ Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
#4
Posted 2009-December-14, 03:20
#5
Posted 2009-December-14, 04:42
OTOH, some of the bigger problems in Precision auctions come after that negative 1♦ response, since we still don't know whose hand it is, and then 4th hand blasts away with some obstructive call, forcing us into uncomfortable territory. Now we have a nebulous 1♥ call, which states that it is our hand, and yet keeps us from knowing what strain(s) are possible. Seems like 4th hand is now in a possibly better position to make just the right obstructive call, since it is now fairly clear that this action will nearly always be a save, rather than any attempt to stake a legitimate claim.
What am I missing?
#6
Posted 2009-December-14, 07:12
SteelWheel, on Dec 14 2009, 05:42 AM, said:
Some people don't want to learn relay slam bidding. This is less efficient but simpler.
#7
Posted 2009-December-14, 09:48
For example, this auction is a common example:
1♣-1♥ (any 8-11)-1♠-2♦. Now you're at the same point but both players have given distributional information. Also, if 1♣-1♠ is played as 8+ HCP instead of 12+ HCP, you can gain some space-saving steps after 1♣-1♥// 2m/♥. For those of you who think relay bidding is so great, I'm sure you can figure those out.
Yes, Greco-Hampson play 1♣-1NT shows ♥s, but there are some advantages to play transfers.
It can be played that accepting the transfer at the cheapest level is like a NT bid as a space saving step, and showing 2-3 card support. Then 2NT can be say a hand with 4+ card support, but denying shortness. This saves responder some room in describing their hand. Think of opener's bid as possibly a natural relay.
Anyways, as a person who plays this system and has been playing it for 4-5 years, I highly recommend the system. If it's good enough for Greco-Hampson or Lall-Bathurst or Grue-Cheek, then it's good enough for me.
#8
Posted 2009-December-14, 15:30
Edited: 12/14 10:11 PM EST
Some description of Meckwell Lite:
http://www.bridgematters.com/bridgematters...or-younger.html
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)
Santa Fe Precision ♣ published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail ♣. 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified ♣ (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary ♣ Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
#9
Posted 2009-December-14, 17:34
Quote
Is there any place to find more information ? I am mainly interested in auctions afte 1D opening. Also some more agreements after 1C would be nice.
Quote
Yeah that sound like good idea I think.
#10
Posted 2009-December-14, 18:05
One major reason. I want something incredibly easy to play when the opponents leave us alone, because that never happens, especially when the precision players are beginner precision players. Everyone wants to jam the heck out of them. So, easy for uncontested, so that you don't blow your brain cells on that.
Spend more time and energy, then, on when the auction is contested, which is more difficult.
The upside to Neapolitan responses is that the "whose hand is it" is often better resolved, IMO, when 4th seat pipes in.
-P.J. Painter.
#11
Posted 2009-December-14, 19:10
But in general I find statements like "system X is clearly better than system Y" pretty hard to take seriously. IMO comfort with whatever you play is far far more important than whatever it is that you actually play.
I can tell you that, as a person who has played "natural" my whole life, the time I spent playing Meckwell Lite was really fun for a few reasons:
1) Lots of new problems I had never faced before
2) Exciting to be able to open the bidding with terrible hands
3) Interesting that some hard hands become easy to bid and vice versa
4) Lots of scope for doing creative and tricky things
Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
#12
Posted 2009-December-14, 21:49
@stjk/olien: Suppose I have an auction in Meckwell Lite as follows (opps silent):
1♣ 2♣ (=diamonds)
2♦ 2♠ (natural)
??
What is a 3♠ call here and how does it differ from an immediate 4♠? Having found a suit under game, I assume that cuebidding is mandatory here given the extra values we know we have?
By contrast, the way B/C Precision handles this sort of situation is as follows (I don't know if this is in "Precision Today" or not--but it was in David's copy of his system notes as of about ten years ago, and I believe it's still there today):
1♣ 2♦ (=natural, 8+)
2[NT] (=semi-artificial, forcing) ??
Responder's second bid:
3♣ (=four card heart suit)
3♦ (=four card spade suit)
3♥ (=rebid of diamonds)
3♠ (=four+ clubs, but diamonds better, stronger, longer, etc)
Now opener can "accept" the transfer into the four card major, and invite the cuebid from responder (alternatively, opener can terminate the auction via a 4♦ puppet, or bid RKC in either of responder's suits, or make a "natural" try via a 4♣ puppet, indicating a hand for which RKC was not a useful/suitable slam investigation tool). Does anyone want to weigh in on which of these methods has more going for it? Should the big club hand be inviting the cue from responder, or vice versa?
@PrecisionL: Hi, Larry. The idea of inverting the Meckwell Lite responses reaches its logical conclusion with "Revision Club", in which most immediate responses are natural and 0-7, and 1♦ is a mark-time bid, which might be 0-7 with no five+ length suit, or can potentially be almost any kind of strong 8+ hand.
#13
Posted 2009-December-14, 22:38
olien, on Dec 14 2009, 10:48 AM, said:
If you compare the number of relay sequences below 3N, you'll realize that those starting with 1♣-1♥-1♠(relay)... to all the rest of them (1♣-1♠ or higher, relay, etc), they are in a ratio of something like 1:1.6 (Fibonacci). This means that you are allocating about 40% of all your relay sequences to showing 8-11 hands, and 60% of them to showing slam hands.
I'm sure this makes for great slam bidding, but slam hands are so rare compared to game hands that this seems like overkill... you are assigning the majority your constructive bidding space to slams! Consequently your game hands will suffer accordingly, from having less available space to describe themselves as well as often suffering from a lack of total strength to keep bidding safely past 3N.
I think it would be clearly an improvement to swap and show all the limited hands directly with 8-11's, and reserve 1♥ as any 12+. This way even though you start 2 steps higher after the 1♠ relay by opener, at least you've got the strength to keep going past 3N without as much risk while looking for the right game/slam.
Personally, I think it would be better to just use positive unlimited responses. Then everything will finish 1-2 steps lower in your relays and now there's space to ask about strength (or have opener make a weakness-showing signoff to discourage any marginal slam tries). Of course then you have to learn/remember a relay slam bidding system, but these are quite good and if you're going to play relay for shape you might as well learn on of these too .
#14
Posted 2009-December-15, 08:47
SteelWheel, on Dec 14 2009, 10:49 PM, said:
1♣ 2♣ (=diamonds)
2♦ 2♠ (natural)
??
What is a 3♠ call here and how does it differ from an immediate 4♠? Having found a suit under game, I assume that cuebidding is mandatory here given the extra values we know we have?
As I know, 1C -2C (5+D, 12+) - 2D does not promiss D fit, so over 2S (2nd suit)
3S should show S fit with slam interest, and 4S should be to play(vs a mini 12-13).
#15
Posted 2009-December-15, 08:56
bluecalm, on Dec 13 2009, 08:15 PM, said:
I ask because for example Greco - Hampson who uses simplified Meckwell play that 1C - 1NT is hearts according to their convention card.
It's not the ofiicial Lite version from meckwell, but should be clsoe. It's based on the version used by the US youth team and I added some followups.
#16
Posted 2009-December-15, 10:15
Regarding continuations after 1♣-1♦, what are the differences between the OP in this thread, the version commonly played by american juniors, and the official meckwell lite version?
Thx
#17
Posted 2009-December-15, 12:13
Apollo81, on Dec 15 2009, 11:15 AM, said:
Regarding continuations after 1♣-1♦, what are the differences between the OP in this thread, the version commonly played by american juniors, and the official meckwell lite version?
Thx
The version in OP, from a quick glance, is what I play and is what is in the notes I received from someone close to the source, though I don't recall 1♣ 1♦ 2♠ showing minors. I might have overlooked it, but im reasonably confident it was just GF with ♠
And just a btw... are we certain meckwell or whomever else is OK with OP posting this information in such a public place? I know it's not private info or anything, but some credit should be given to the source, in my opinion.
bed
#18
Posted 2009-December-15, 12:25
jjbrr, on Dec 15 2009, 01:13 PM, said:
Just hearing people think like this makes me sad. Next thing you know I'll be able to copyright 2-way NMF and start suing people for playing it and getting their internet connections pulled for mentioned it online. Remember that 1st amendment?
PS Credit was certainly attributed in the title, unless you're talking about whoever "simplified" it.
#19
Posted 2009-December-15, 13:18
Rob F, on Dec 15 2009, 01:25 PM, said:
jjbrr, on Dec 15 2009, 01:13 PM, said:
Just hearing people think like this makes me sad. Next thing you know I'll be able to copyright 2-way NMF and start suing people for playing it and getting their internet connections pulled for mentioned it online. Remember that 1st amendment?
PS Credit was certainly attributed in the title, unless you're talking about whoever "simplified" it.
Thank you for your ignorance. A little bit goes a long way.
Meanwhile, I received an electronic copy of these notes from Jeff's son a couple years ago after I promised that I wouldn't distribute them without permission. My only point was that if they still feel that public dissemination is inappropriate, perhaps that point should be made clear, and we should respect the wishes they had, albeit a couple years ago.
Where you got this lawsuit and copyright business is totally beyond me. Care to explain wtf you're referring to, because I in no way implied anything like that in my post?
bed
#20
Posted 2009-December-15, 13:38
Quote
Many people play this system. It's only fair to discuss it or reverse engineer it. Bridge is not copyright business.