[Codo]

So you play penalty doubles after their NT openings. (This is given, else the questions are senseless)

I want your opinions for the following questions:

1. Do your answers depend on the vul. and of the given NT range?
If so, assume a 11-14 NT.

2. (1NT) X pass ?

Is it common sense that bidding 2 any shows a weak distributional hand?
And that 2 NT shows a forcing two suiter and 3 any a forcing one suiter?
And that you pass with a weak balanced hand?

If you have other aggrements, feel free to share them.

3. The bidding goes:

(1 NT) X (2any) ?

How do you proceed? What do pass, double, suit bids and 2 NT show?

4.(1 NT) X (pass) pass
(2 any) ?

How do you proceed? What is pass, double, suit bids and 2 NT?

I would like to see your opinions to get a feeling what is more popular (F.E. penalty X or take out) but even more I am interessted in some reasoning beyond wtp and obv. lol to understand why you choose your choice.

[Free]

I really like 2-3-doubles in these situations. When opps bid a suit, the hand immediately over the 2X bid doubles with 2-3 cards in that suit, and passes otherwise (unless he has a better bid ofcourse). After a pass, partner can double for penalty, because he knows what you have. This way, you won't penalize them if they've found a 5-3 fit, or a 5-2 with trumps dividing 3-3.

So:
1NT-Dbl-2X-Dbl = 2-3X
1NT-Dbl-2X-p = 0-1X or 4+X
1NT-Dbl-p-p-2X-Dbl = 2-3X
1NT-Dbl-p-p-2X-p = 0-1X or 4+X

After 1NT-Dbl-p-??? you have several methods: one is to play like Dbl showed a NT opening (so Stayman and transfers), another is to just run away with a weak distributional hand.

[gwnn]

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=27718
http://forums.bridge...showtopic=27032
more to follow

[helene_t]

1, No

2. It isn't common sense that 3x is forcing. Not sure what I could like it to be. Could be preemptive if responder's pass is "artificial".

3. If pass is forcing I like to play x as optional and pass as two-way, although dbl=penalty is probably standard. I think most play pass forcing over 2m but not over 2M. I think I like 2NT to be scrambling over 2M and leb over 2m but a case could be made for playing leb throughout.

4. Same as 3 I think.

[gwnn]

Free, on Dec 4 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

I really like 2-3-doubles in these situations. When opps bid a suit, the hand immediately over the 2X bid doubles with 2-3 cards in that suit, and passes otherwise (unless he has a better bid ofcourse). After a pass, partner can double for penalty, because he knows what you have. This way, you won't penalize them if they've found a 5-3 fit, or a 5-2 with trumps dividing 3-3.

Or when they are in a 4-2 or 5-1 fit and trumps split 4-3? (first pass shows 0-1 or 4+, partner will assume 0-1 and now they're off the hook)

[helene_t]

Free, on Dec 4 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

I really like 2-3-doubles in these situations. When opps bid a suit, the hand immediately over the 2X bid doubles with 2-3 cards in that suit, and passes otherwise (unless he has a better bid ofcourse). After a pass, partner can double for penalty, because he knows what you have.

Do I understand this correctly? Is aggressor supposed to guess whether advancer has 0-1 or 4+ ?

For all we know they found their 11 card fit and aggressor can "see" in his own hand that advancer has 4+.

Just noticed in the other thread that dburn plays dbl meaning "I would pass your penalty dbl". I suppose this means more or less the same, i.e. what I called optional dbls and 2-way pass. Advancer passes with 0-1 or 4+, then aggressor will normally dbl (unless he has shortness in their suit and a long suit on his own, or 5-5 which he can show with 2NT or w/e, or he is not in a force and has no monster hand), now advancer passes with 4+ and takes out with 0-1.

[Free]

gwnn, on Dec 4 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

Free, on Dec 4 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

I really like 2-3-doubles in these situations.  When opps bid a suit, the hand immediately over the 2X bid doubles with 2-3 cards in that suit, and passes otherwise (unless he has a better bid ofcourse).  After a pass, partner can double for penalty, because he knows what you have.  This way, you won't penalize them if they've found a 5-3 fit, or a 5-2 with trumps dividing 3-3.

Or when they are in a 4-2 or 5-1 fit and trumps split 4-3? (first pass shows 0-1 or 4+, partner will assume 0-1 and now they're off the hook)

5-1 is quite impossible, responder would've run away to his 5-card suit or will do it now.
4-2 is quite impossible because you don't just bid a 4 card suit (you have RDbl for those hands, or 2X means 2 suits)

[gwnn]

why would they run if they know you can't penalize them?

[suokko]

More interesting question is how far (1NT) X creates force. For me it is up to 2 of minor and opponents may play 2 of major undoubled. So we play penalty doubles minor bids by opps and t/o for major bids. and for others bids Rubensohl applies.

double showing 2 or 3 cards is very nice convention if you can get your partner to learn it. It takes some training to learn to use effectively. I think there is minor tweak tht might make the double better one. if your hand looks bad for defending you should with 4 small cards in opponents suit and pass with 2 small cards. This is probably more like what dburd is doing.

[helene_t]

yes agree with that, basically if you want to defend opposite a balanced hand with three enemy trumps you double.

[Ant590]

This is roughly what I play:

1.
I only play penalty doubles if the NT range includes 14 point hands, or ranges that are less than this. so 10-12, 12-14, 14-16 all attract penalty doubles, but 15-17 or (14)15-17 do not. So I'll assume a 11-14NT.

2.
Weak hands run (even with 4333), stronger hands (around (5)6+) pass. If advances passes then bids it is constructive, and we are in a FP situation at the 2-level. This is the case even if responder's pass was the start of a scrambling sequence.

3.
This depends on what 2any meant.
If natural: Pass is forcing, double suggests penalties, bids are weak (again, a weak hand must always run).
If artificial (e.g.) transfer: double shows the suit bid and sets up FP, pass sets up FP, weak hands run, 2NT weak scramble where appropriate.

4.
Due to 2. we know we have the balance of the points, and so we play usual FP rules here (dble penalty). We don't usually bid here, but suits and 2NT are hands that doesn't think we can get rich enough defending a doubled two-level contract. On the sequence where overcaller passes and advancer can not double, suit bids are constructive.

[gnasher]

1. I play penalty-oriented doubles of all notrump openings. So many 6322 13- and 14-counts get treated as 15-17 balanced that I find I still like to have a double available.

2. I think that
  1NT dbl pass 2x
is best played as invitational, with something like KQJxxx or KJxxxxx and nothing else. If you had enough to force to game and the side-strength to be uncertain of the best game, you'd usually also be suitable for passing 1NTx.

3. After
  1NT dbl pass 2x (natural)
it's common in the UK to play forcing passes, especially over a minor. The better/younger players tend to play "takeout" doubles too. As others have noted, "takeout" usually means "I would pass a penalty double" rather than "I want you to bid".

If you play forcing passes and/or takeout doubles, you have to agree how advancer will cope with:
- A weak balanced hand
- A weak hand with a five-card suit
- A constructive hand with a five-card suit.
To show these three hand-types, you have only two sets of sequences: bidding directly, and passing then removing partner's double. Nobody has a perfect solution to that problem.

Personally I dislike forcing passes. What I prefer to play is:
- Pass is non-forcing, either a weak hand or a penalty double.
- Double is takeout.
- Bids are constructive.
- Pass and pull partner's takeout double is weak, and might be either a 4- or 5-card suit.
- 2NT and higher are transfers. If you don't play that, you should play Lebensohl.
This style is vulnerable to psyches, but otherwise OK.

After
  1NT dbl pass 2x (artificial)
It seems to me obviously best to play double as balanced values and pass as a bad hand. Some people play the double as "takeout" of the suit they've actually bid; I have no idea why.

4. After
  1NT dbl pass pass
  2x
it seems best to play takeout doubles and non-foricng passes by both sides. If aggressor has a penalty double and advancer a pile of balanced junk, we defend their suit undoubled, but that's probably what we want to do anyway.

[Fluffy]

Appart from every good post here. I want to note that me and Dad play 2♣ scrambling after 1NT-X-pass. Showing a escape hand with no suit.