[karen4]

Playing at a club I don't play at often, against a pair I had never met, we had the following uncontested auction against us

1C-1D
3D- all pass

1C was any unbalanced 11-19
1D was any hand up to 6 points (ie, we don't have game on partner)

Scoring: MP

---

We actually got an average board. However, it raised the following questions for me:

1. Is this system illegal?
2. It looks very much to me (without accusing anyone of anything and without having any other experience of how their auctions tend to progress after this) that the 1D bid is an invitation to partner to make whatever psyche he feels like.

Incidentally, it was really hard work getting an explanation for the 1D bid.

[paulg]

I'll beat bluejak to it and say it depends where you live and what the regulations are there.

After that it probably depends on what they said 3♦ shows.

[hrothgar]

If you are playing in the ACBL, then the system is GCC legal so long as the 1♦ response is forcing.

The proof is left as an exercise for the reader

[mjj29]

hrothgar, on Dec 5 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

If you are playing in the ACBL, then the system is GCC legal so long as the 1♦ response is forcing.

Really? If 1C is _any_ 11-19? Not promising clubs? not even if it could have a 5 card major?

EBU would allow it at level 4 as long as it couldn't be a hand with a 5 card major without a longer minor. WBF it would be a HUM if 1D wasn't strong (16+).

[blackshoe]

Really. From the GCC, Item 1 under Opening Bids:

Quote

ONE CLUB OR ONE DIAMOND may be used as an all-purpose opening bid (artificial or natural) promising a minimum of 10 high-card points.

Hrothgar's right that the 1♦ response must be forcing, too.

As to "hard work getting an explanation for the 1♦ bid", unfortunately, that's all too often the case. And there's not much that can be done about it, either.

[mjj29]

blackshoe, on Dec 5 2009, 10:15 PM, said:

Really. From the GCC, Item 1 under Opening Bids:

Quote

ONE CLUB OR ONE DIAMOND may be used as an all-purpose opening bid (artificial or natural) promising a minimum of 10 high-card points.

But you don't allow opening 1NT with a singleton? Madness. Or possibly Sparta.

[barmar]

If you're looking for consistency in convention regulation, don't look at the ACBL.

[FrancesHinden]

mjj29, on Dec 6 2009, 01:18 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Dec 5 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

If you are playing in the ACBL, then the system is GCC legal so long as the 1♦ response is forcing.

Really? If 1C is _any_ 11-19? Not promising clubs? not even if it could have a 5 card major?

EBU would allow it at level 4 as long as it couldn't be a hand with a 5 card major without a longer minor. WBF it would be a HUM if 1D wasn't strong (16+).

In the EBU you can included balanced hands with a 5-card major in your 1C opening i.e. 1C is any subset of natural, or balanced (any 5332/4432/4333), or a natural 1D opening, or any 4441

[blackshoe]

mjj29, on Dec 6 2009, 04:11 AM, said:

But you don't allow opening 1NT with a singleton? Madness. Or possibly Sparta.

barmar said:

If you're looking for consistency in convention regulation, don't look at the ACBL.

And don't blame me!

[helene_t]

mjj29, on Dec 6 2009, 02:18 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Dec 5 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

If you are playing in the ACBL, then the system is GCC legal so long as the 1♦ response is forcing.

Really? If 1C is _any_ 11-19? Not promising clubs? not even if it could have a 5 card major?

EBU would allow it at level 4 as long as it couldn't be a hand with a 5 card major without a longer minor. WBF it would be a HUM if 1D wasn't strong (16+).

I think that should be level 3, shouldnt it? Or are you saying that Polish Club, Canape systems, or even an archaic style within the framework of a natural (all suits promising 4+) style in which hands with 4m5M and reverse strength open the minor, are illegal at level 4?

[jeremy69]

Quote

I think that should be level 3, shouldnt it? Or are you saying that Polish Club, Canape systems, or even an archaic style within the framework of a natural (all suits promising 4+) style in which hands with 4m5M and reverse strength open the minor, are illegal at level 4?

You can play an either/or 1C at Level 4 but there are more restrictions at Level 3.

Quote

In the EBU you can included balanced hands with a 5-card major in your 1C opening i.e. 1C is any subset of natural, or balanced (any 5332/4432/4333), or a natural 1D opening, or any 4441

11C11 doesn't alow this at Level 3 but does at Level 4.

[karen4]

Sorry, I should have said this is EBU-land.

The 1D can be passed if opener is weak with diamonds.

[mjj29]

karen4, on Dec 6 2009, 07:16 PM, said:

Sorry, I should have said this is EBU-land.

Then it's illegal if it can contain unbalanced hands with 5 hearts or spades (level 4) or diamonds (level 3) without a longer minor. The responses aren't relevant since (to quote) "all responses and continuations are allowed"

[greenender]

karen4, on Dec 5 2009, 04:01 PM, said:

1D was any hand up to 6 points (ie, we don't have game on partner)

[snip]

2. It looks very much to me (without accusing anyone of anything and without having any other experience of how their auctions tend to progress after this) that the 1D bid is an invitation to partner to make whatever psyche he feels like.

Incidentally, it was really hard work getting an explanation for the 1D bid.

If I were to play this system I'd be worried about missing quite a few games with a maximum for 1♣ opposite a fitting maximum for 1♦, so I reckon I'd reserve some sequences for game exploration.

I have a real thing about players playing oddball methods who are reluctant to give full disclosure. What is difficult about describing a bid which is just an all-purpose negative, albeit to a weird, rather than a strong, opening? Shoot them, and then ask questions if inclined.