[Erkson]

I would like to read point of views based on sharp analysis about what makes the Italian Team the best team and 2004 EC winner.

What did make Poland and France -for instance- to loose the 2004 European Championships ?

[Flame]

I was asking myself the same question, i didnt watch too many of their matches so i cant say what ment there, but from what Iv seen they play simple bridge , making nearly no mistakes, and putting pressure on the opponents to make mistakes. tradition and expirience got alot to do with it,they play for long time with the same partner in serious tournaments thats helps alot, i watched a match between israel and germany yesterday and i must tell you both teams played really bad, one things i really didnt like is a pair on our team trying to save the nation and after few bad lucks , doubling a contract that can make with an overtrick, and a board latter opening a (14)15-17 1NT with 13 hcp (yes nice 10s so what) , i guess this wouldnt happend to the italian. The german played really bad too so it ended with a tie.
About systems, the italian have nice and untreditional systems that might help, i also checked the Sweden's systems yesterday and i really liked them, i think those good systems got something to do with the success of the Sweden team.

[GijsH]

The Dutch national team were asking themselves the same question, when successes didn't come after winning the Bermuda Bowl in 1993.
As usual the answer is a combination of reasons:

1. most important: THE ITALIANS ARE BETTER AT SLAM BIDDING. I have witnessed hands where an Italian top pair bid to slam in less than 1 minute, while a French or Dutch pair take 5 minutes to deliberate if they will pass the game level and then stop at the 5 level.

2. long term partnerships is of course a must, but more importantly the TEAM SPIRIT in the Italian team is extreemly good. It was the main reason for their success in the 60s and 70s and it is the main reason now, especially during long tournaments.

3. the Italian team have more individually TALENTED PLAYERS than the other teams. And there are some rich people in Italy willing to foot the bill to supply a decent living for these talented players. (this was also the case in the 60s and 70s). Some time ago I played against Bocchi and mrs Lavazza at a pairs tournament. I was declaring a 4S contract and after 2 tricks Bocchi (who is quite noisy all the time) indicated that I had a trow-in against mrs Lavazza to play for. He was right of course, and mrs Lavazza frowned heavily at him for making me aware of that, but it just showed to me what talented players they have.

At this level of bridge, systems have nothing to do with it, less than the 3% Hamman likes to quote, as long as you don't play complicated relay systems, which will drain you of energy in long tournaments. Thorough mutual understanding of your "natural" methods comes with a long term partnership and discussing a lot about bridge with partner, team-mates and coaches.

[Trpltrbl]

Solid pdships, they have been playing together for years, and years to come.
They know eachother and the system inside out, they don't switch pd's every few years. And of course they are fulltime bridgepro's.
Great tablefeel.

Mike

[Trpltrbl]

And of course I don't think they have to worry about money, and little things like that. In Netherlands some years ago they tried to set up a professional Bridge team, it was pathetic. Beggars were getting more money.

Mike

[fred]

Some of the reasons stated by others are correct:

- great individual players (but there are other countries
that have 6 or more great players)

- great partnerships (purely a matter of hard work)

- players are involved in bridge full time (important
and relatively rare in the bridge world)

Some of the reasons that have not been stated:

- Italy is one of the few countries that almost always
seems able to select its best team. In Malmo neither
Poland nor Norway (2 of the few countries that have
a chance to beat Italy) did not have their best teams.

- The Italians are very confident. When they sit down
they expect to win (rightly so!). Most of their opponents
expect to lose. In my view, "intangibles" like these are
very important. Teams that expect to lose usually do
not play their best and find a way to lose even if the win
is dealt to them.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Trpltrbl]

Quote

- Italy is one of the few countries that almost always
seems able to select its best team. In Malmo neither
Poland nor Norway (2 of the few countries that have
a chance to beat Italy) did not have their best teams.

Very true, I for one think that the defending Champion, should automatically be invited for the next championship. I know a few countries where the strongest players don't compete anymore because of different reasons. But mostly it has to do with disagreements with the National Bridge Union, and that again has to do mostly with money.
Moneywise winning a Bermudabowl or EC, or something similair, doesn't pay. Unless your sponsor, playing or not, or Country pays you for winning or placing high.
It's no wonder most kids are more interested in multimillion $ contracts for profootball, baseball, basketball, soccer etc. You probably even make more money in synchronized swimming. It's sad but true.
Bridge has become for a game for the old and retired with not much else to do.
Even countries like the Netherlands were the youth played a lot more then older people. Guess I will have to wait another 35 years or so.

Quote

- The Italians are very confident. When they sit down
they expect to win (rightly so!). Most of their opponents
expect to lose. In my view, "intangibles" like these are
very important. Teams that expect to lose usually do
not play their best and find a way to lose even if the win
is dealt to them.

Attitude is half the game, reason why Meckwell are hard to beat.
But they play for money, so instead of winning even more Worldchampionships, they play with clients. Maybe Countries should start being proud of Worldchampions, and award money for Championships won.
I am sure if Meckwell can win $250,000 for winning Worldchampionship Pairs, they would play em all together. Nomore clients.

Mike

[mishovnbg]

Science... instead of stone age bridge...
Misho

[Erkson]

mishovnbg, on Jul 5 2004, 06:12 AM, said:

Science... instead of stone age bridge...
Misho

Hi, Misho.

"Ah! non! c'est un peu court, jeune homme !"

When you get time, please, could you be more specific ?

Generally speaking, "Science" doesn't solve all problems (and sometimes it may cause big ones).

Is there so much "science" in First Italian Team's bridge ?

[Flame]

fred, on Jul 4 2004, 01:39 PM, said:

Italy is one of the few countries that almost always
seems able to select its best team. In Malmo neither
Poland nor Norway (2 of the few countries that have
a chance to beat Italy) did not have their best teams.

Unfortunetly this is true about israel too, our better players didnt want to play in this championship, it wasnt importent enough for them and the olympics are enough. We sent a team with the oldest being 33 years old, he is also the least expirence playing bridge for only 3 years.

[jjsb]

a lot has been said on that topic already I have been impressed by Italy for a lot of reason but one particularly is there confidence , it so happen they begin the match with some bad deals (not often thougth yes but that happened ! ) but it likes it was nothing and then simply continue the same way and won those match .

we also didnt speak about that event with a complete round robin , what do u think of that? i mean compare to a final in KO (semi and final) for exemple , or a swiss event etc...

regards
syl

[Flame]

jjsb, on Jul 5 2004, 04:05 AM, said:

we also didnt speak about that event with a complete round robin , what do u think of that? i mean compare to a final in KO (semi and final) for exemple , or a swiss event etc...

I would rather see some finals or semi finals, but i am guesssing they wanted it to be shorter, because if you want to have a serious final or semi you cant make it 20 boards or so, it must be atleast 100 boards, and that take time.

[Trpltrbl]

Quote

they wanted it to be shorter

I think 33 rounds is long enough, nearly 2 weeks of bridge.

Mike

[twcho]

I have seen all their three pairs in action thruout the whole tournament. I must admit that Fantoni-Nunes appeals to me most as I will surely vote them the best pair in this tournament (though they only rank 2nd to Bocchi-Duboin in Butler ranking but pls remember B-D did get some generous gift from some of their opps. e.g. the 3400 from Lithuania ).

Bocchi-Duboin and Lauria-Versace are long time well established partnership while F-N is a relative new partnership that is not well known a few years before. I just wonder how can they be promoted to the world top pair list so quickly. Is this because of their unique bidding system or they possess some talents that other pairs lacks.

[whereagles]

They're very well paid professionals. They have a responsibility towards the sponsors (Lavazza) to come up with the "goods".

[flytoox]

Trpltrbl, on Jul 4 2004, 05:53 PM, said:

And of course I don't think they have to worry about money, and little things like that. In Netherlands some years ago they tried to set up a professional Bridge team, it was pathetic. Beggars were getting more money.

Mike

Hmm, seems China is not alone after all:)

[PriorKnowledge]

Some general observations

1) During the 60's and 70's, the Italians won all those championships because, quite simply, they had 4 of the top 5 players in the world.

2) The Italians seem to have a nose for slams.

3) During the 70's, the American "Aces" were created by a rich Texan. He "hired" the top young players, gave them money, computers, etc, for what I believe was the sole purpose of beating the Italians and winning a world championship for America. The Aces developed many new conventions and treatments.

4) The Italians are not afraid of failure. They take reasonable risks.

5) They understand that the difference in top-flight matches are the slam hands and the weird hands. Any good pair can get to the right game on 26 pts or slam on 33 pts. It is the 26 pts slams and the double game swings that make the difference.