[whereagles]

Hi all. Suppose you have this auction

1♠ (pass) 1NT (pass)
2♣ (2♦) dbl

Notes:
1NT = forcing/semiforcing
2♣ = could be 3 cards if balanced
2♦ = natural, but does not necessarily imply tolerance for hearts

How do you feel this double should be played? Penalties, take-out or optional? Please state reasons below.

Also: would you make any changes to the meaning if it went, say,

1M (pass) 1NT (pass)
2x (2y) dbl

with suit y of higher rank than the unbid suit?

[kenberg]

It isn't an auction that you hear often, but it seems to me that the doubler could well hold something like AJx(x) of diamonds and scattered values so that he thinks it's possible to beat it on power. Second hand, for whatever reasons, didn't judge his hand worth 2D over 1S and has now come in. It seems likely to me that the double suggests that he has made a mistake.

If this X is played as suggesting penalties then doubler will not have length in clubs or spades, suggesting that the opponents are not apt to enjoy a run to hearts either.

Players are told that when one side has an 8 card fit it is likely that the other side does also. A companion thought is that when one side does not have an 8 card fit, the other side is not likely to either. Of course one side can have an 8 card fit and the other side could have three 7 card fits but more often than not the fits, and also the misfits, come together. If we have the balance of power and the hands don't fit, playing 2DX could be right, especially when the D honors are favorably placed for the defense.

[gwnn]

doubles of retarded bids are for penalties.

[whereagles]

gwnn, on Nov 23 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

doubles of retarded bids are for penalties.

Retarded, as in delayed... or just plain silly?

[gwnn]

You mean like retarded green's functions?

naah I just mean plain silly, or more than plain silly. But in this case the two are approximately the same.

[whereagles]

gwnn, on Nov 23 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

You mean like retarded green's functions?

Exactly, yes.. eheh.

[jdonn]

I'm trying to think of a good takeout shape. 2533? 2434? These are hard because you really want it to be penalty but you can have hands like those where a more optional style double makes sense too. I guess this is penalty just because it really sounds like it is.

[aguahombre]

I like the term "informative" better than "penalty" for a lot of competitive doubles which others might use as takeout. The double informs partner you would like to defend, but the opponents are free to raise if they want. (Explained as desire to defend, though.)

[Jlall]

Obv this is penalty lol, you could have 5 good ones of their suit very easily on such an auction.

[Phil]

It isn't takeout, thats for sure. Even cooperative is a very specific pattern! 2533? 2434?

So it tends to be penalty.

[P_Marlowe]

Optional (my vote) / Penalty.

It showes at least a strong option, i.e. 10-12bal. is the most likely
version.

Since 2Dx is not game, a X can be speculative, if you have a 50%
chance to beat it -1, you are basically break even (depends on vul,
but who cares about an add. 90 out of the window)
..., the 2D overcall was delayed, and if you wait until you really
have a stack, you wont be able to catch them.
It gets more interesting, if it was 2H instead of 2D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenrexford]

I call this the "Smack Down DOuble."

[Jlall]

gwnn, on Nov 23 2009, 08:02 AM, said:

doubles of retarded bids are for penalties.

lol this is such a good policy, well said!

[the hog]

This is a 100% penalty double. However if you play against good opponents you won't see this auction much.

[Codo]

Just a minute ago I wrote that our meta-agreement is: Always take out.
But even for us, this is for blood.

[Oof Arted]

BLOOD what else lets punish the stupid bidders

[whereagles]

Thx all. Penalty it will be then. I just need a rule.. maybe that one with green's functions lol.