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Super Hard? I doubt it...

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 10:41

Dealer: West
Vul: All
Scoring: IMP
AT3
Q654
T653
AQ
QJ5
T2
K
KJ97432
West North East South
 1    2    3    Dbl
 RDbl  Pass  4    Pass
 4    Pass  5    Pass
 5    Pass  Pass  Pass

You are south, and hold the long suit and singleton , dummy is East.


T1. A - x - K- x
T2. 4 - 5 - 2 - J


Kibitized this one, the commentators called the defense to set 5 super hard to find on / defense. I wonder? What do you return to trick three, and why?
--Ben--

#2 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 10:56

just throw out a trump, then follow dummy's discard. declarer will have at most 2s+1c+7h.

seems there is a possible sqz, but still looks right to return trump.
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#3 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 10:57

Ben, is it possible to change the display so that it is easier to read? thx in adv.

hongjun
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#4 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 11:08

flytoox, on Jul 1 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

Ben, is it possible to change the display so that it is easier to read? thx in adv.

hongjun

This is the standard BBF format. You are always "South" in problem hands. Maybe we should add a line that indicates direction above each hand in the diagram. I am use to south always being the declearer, so when defending I am use to being West or East. But it is possible to get adapted to the BBO standard of the "problem" hand (in this case "you") always being south.
--Ben--

#5 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 11:30

inquiry, on Jul 1 2004, 05:08 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 1 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

Ben, is it possible to change the display so that it is easier to read? thx in adv.

hongjun

This is the standard BBF format. You are always "South" in problem hands. Maybe we should add a line that indicates direction above each hand in the diagram. I am use to south always being the declearer, so when defending I am use to being West or East. But it is possible to get adapted to the BBO standard of the "problem" hand (in this case "you") always being south.

hehe, i see, i feel like sitting west, looking at dummy in north, so i spent quite a few minuites to figure out what is going on:)


HJ
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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 15:43

Ben, is it possible to know if declarer droped 2? :D

if 2 is not missinge partner is asking for return, just do it.

If the 2 is missing partner has played 3rd from 4 possible 4 cards, that is: asking for return, wich is imposible, so he desires no return, and lets us pick.

Ok lets pick, if partner holds 9xxx we are into a double squeeze unless we play Q, but if declarer is having K9x we have just gave away the option of failing to squezze, playing finese.

Since Ben loves squeezes I supose it is the first one, so lets return Q :unsure:
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#7 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 16:12

From previous hands, I know Ben loves squeezes, so a passive back I don't believe in. A back just doesn't look right. If declarer has 4 I will get my trick anyway. So Q is to break the squeeze.

Mike :D
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#8 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 17:27

i don't see how a trump back helps.. if declarer has 4 clubs he'll take the finesse and still trump 2 of them.. if pard has a trump winner it won't go away

i don't like leading a spade.. a low spade loses to the 9 and i'm sunk... a high spade marks the finesse... so (also based on the supposed fact that partner led a low diamond) i guess i'll lead a club back
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#9 User is online   cherdano 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 00:00

Let me follow good practice and start by stating the obvious: Since declarer went beyond 4 with 12 pts, he will have lots of shape, most likely 3-7-2-1. The key is then, of course, the spade suit.

If declarer has K9x, he has a squeeze against me whatever I do, so we can lead a spade honor without worrying about loosing a trick. But if he has K8x, he still has a double squeeze if we exit passively. (See below.)
But we can break this by leading back a spade honor.

The squeeze: Declarer cashes club Ace and draws trumps, reaching this position:

He leads the last trump, and partner and I are both squeezed out of our third spade.

Even if declarer has K9x in spades, it seems right to lead a spade honor. Since the squeeze line his 100% from his point of view (for him it doesn't matter whether it is a simple squeeze against me or a double squeeze if he plays for the same position as above), I might make the same play with Qxx or Jxx in spades, and in both cases he is forced to guess the finesse. (I dont see a squeeze line for him that works both against QJx and Qxx in my hand -- I might be missing s.th. here, though.)
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#10 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 02:02

I'll play a trump back.pretty sure its wrong because of how the question was asked but i dont see the problem.
It seems werong to me, to play spade now inorder to break a possible squeeze when first we dont know if there is a squeeze and second even when there is , like in the example before me, decleare can and imo should play on the finnese club rather then trying the squeeze.
about returning club, i dont see how it can help , and luke, when you play passively you dont need to see how it works, you just wait for declerer to take what his and leave you with yours, only when you try something offensive, like playing a club here you need to know how it will help.
partner coming back with a small club doesnt mean he has a void, with xxx of club and xxx of spade partner must come back with small, this is because we can "see" that club is not a good return, but now he is telling us spade is no better either.
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#11 User is online   cherdano 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 03:27

Flame, on Jul 2 2004, 08:02 AM, said:

It seems wrong to me, to play spade now inorder to break a possible squeeze when first we dont know if there is a squeeze and second even when there is , like in the example before me, decleare can and imo should play on the finnese club rather then trying the squeeze.

I think you got the seats wrong. You are sitting BEHIND dummy.
(Also, partner didn't overtake your K, he led the A.)
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#12 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 03:40

cherdano, on Jul 2 2004, 04:27 AM, said:

Flame, on Jul 2 2004, 08:02 AM, said:

It seems wrong to me, to play spade now inorder to break a possible squeeze when first we dont know if there is a squeeze and second even when there is , like in the example before me, decleare can and imo should play on the finnese club rather then trying the squeeze.

I think you got the seats wrong. You are sitting BEHIND dummy.
(Also, partner didn't overtake your K, he led the A.)

I got the seats right, (but the lead wrong, so i deleted my remark about overtaking), i know im behind dummy and i think declerer right play is to finnese and lose the clubs, rather then play on loswer precentage squeeze (that might not even exist)
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#13 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 04:35

what did partner overcalled 2D with ? AQxxxx of diamond and nothing else ?
I dont think so, maybe coming back with the heart is a problem selling his K sgl, i dont know.
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#14 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 07:54

cherdano, on Jul 2 2004, 06:00 AM, said:

Let me follow good practice and start by stating the obvious: Since declarer went beyond 4 with 12 pts, he will have lots of shape, most likely 3-7-2-1. The key is then, of course, the spade suit.

If declarer has K9x, he has a squeeze against me whatever I do, so we can lead a spade honor without worrying about loosing a trick. But if he has K8x, he still has a double squeeze if we exit passively. (See below.)
But we can break this by leading back a spade honor.

The squeeze: Declarer cashes club Ace and draws trumps, reaching this position:

He leads the last trump, and partner and I are both squeezed out of our third spade.

Even if declarer has K9x in spades, it seems right to lead a spade honor. Since the squeeze line his 100% from his point of view (for him it doesn't matter whether it is a simple squeeze against me or a double squeeze if he plays for the same position as above), I might make the same play with Qxx or Jxx in spades, and in both cases he is forced to guess the finesse. (I dont see a squeeze line for him that works both against QJx and Qxx in my hand -- I might be missing s.th. here, though.)

This looks like the right picture.
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#15 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 07:56

Flame, on Jul 2 2004, 10:35 AM, said:

what did partner overcalled 2D with ? AQxxxx of diamond and nothing else ?
I dont think so, maybe coming back with the heart is a problem selling his K sgl, i dont know.

if pd has singleton hk, then selling it out doesnt matter, coz declarer has only 6h+2s+1c.
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#16 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 08:26

flytoox, on Jul 2 2004, 08:56 AM, said:

Flame, on Jul 2 2004, 10:35 AM, said:

what did partner overcalled 2D with ? AQxxxx of diamond and nothing else ?
I dont think so, maybe coming back with the heart is a problem selling his K sgl, i dont know.

if pd has singleton hk, then selling it out doesnt matter, coz declarer has only 6h+2s+1c.

right, and good for my trump return.
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Posted 2004-July-02, 10:39


Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     -     1
 2    3    Dbl   RDbl
 Pass  4    Pass  4
 Pass  5    Pass  5
 Pass  Pass  Pass  



Ok. Cherdano has it exactly right, imho, and for all the correct reasons. And, a few others, notable Flame and Trpltrbl (who guessed squeeze defense because it was me who posted the hand) as well.

Some of the comments during the hand was a Ace and would not beat the contract, because East would be squeezed in the blacksuits, but West's 9 is a stopper because the spade threat has to be in South's hand (hence the 8 is the threat).

If south has the 9, then EAST "could" be exposed to a black suit squeeze, but of course, declearer might simply take the hook (if he had a club..hehehe) rather than play for the trifecta of EAST holding K and either QJ(x) or four to the Queen or JACK.

So the two options seem to be a trump back, and hope declearer with a singleton club and three spades, takes the hook. Or to exit a honor to break up a pending squeeze. The good news about a back, declarer will have to guess if you had Qxx or Qxx (as noted by Cherdano). As you can see from the actual hand, only a back breaks up the pending double squeeze. If the is won in dummy, there is no entry to the / threat (after running trumps), and if the is won in south, there is no entry in the double threat suit hand.

Ben
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#18 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 14:14

It always helps to know who you are dealing :rolleyes:

Mike :D
If there is dissatisfaction with the status quo, good. If there is ferment,
so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.
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