[P_Marlowe]

ONEferBRID, on Nov 24 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Let's assume Opener has a minimum ( most likely ) and NO shortness.
We all hate the plain vanilla Jac2NT reply of 4H.
But even if you play one of the Scandinavian 2NT systems where 3C! = minimum, may or may not have shortness ( 3D! asks), how do you get a ♠ cue BELOW game level? You can't.
So I think we are stuck with an eventual key card ask, and Andy's final 6NT if Opener only shows 1 key card.

If you know of a way to get a ♠ cue from Opener ( w/no shortness) below 4♥, please let me know.

Well, this is simple.

1H - 2NT (1)
3C (2) - 3H (3)
3S (4)

(1) Jacoby
(2) Min, no shortage
(3) waiting, demanding a cue, the meaning of 3H is similar to 3NT
(4) voila

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

Hanoi5, on Nov 24 2009, 11:31 PM, said:

1♥-2NT
4♥-5♣
5♥-6♦!!!
???

With:

♠Ax
♥QTxxx
♦Kxx
♣QJx

I really hate 4 Heart for minimum. But given that, the 5 club bid was fine. It shows: Club control, no first round spade control still interessted in slam.

Now CHO thought: ThIS IDIOT, didn't he see me bidding 4 Heart? I will repeat the message and bid 5 Heart. CHO was the idiot himself. 5 Heart is simply wrong.

[gnasher]

Hanoi5, on Nov 24 2009, 03:31 PM, said:

1♥-2NT
4♥-5♣
5♥-6♦!!!
???

With:

♠Ax
♥QTxxx
♦Kxx
♣QJx

That hand should have bid 5♦ over 5♣. 5♦ promises spade control, which must be the ace.

Suppose that you make your opening hand Ax Q10xxx Qxx QJx, which might sign off in 5♥. The bidding will go:

1♥-2NT
4♥-5♣
5♥-6♣ (a better bid than 6♦)

At this point opener should probably just bid 7♠, but if he's still nervous he can bid 6♦. That shows ♠A, because responder denied it. It can't show ♦K, because opener denied holding ♦K and ♠A. Therefore, even if you don't usually play Last Train, that's what this is.

ONEferBRID said:

If you know of a way to get a ♠ cue from Opener ( w/no shortness) below 4♥, please let me know.

Why on earth do you care what level we're at when he cue-bids it? As long as we're below 6NT when he makes the decision, we're fine.

P_Marlowe said:

Chances are that if p has only one 1KC, this 1KC is the king of hearts,
if he has the Ace of spade, that is life.

It's also 11 or 13 IMPs out. You must have very tolerant teammates.

[andy_h]

Hanoi5, on Nov 25 2009, 01:31 AM, said:

1♥-2NT
4♥-5♣
5♥-6♦!!!
???

With:

♠Ax
♥QTxxx
♦Kxx
♣QJx

Given that you have boxed on your hand with 4♥, I'm assuming worse than an average minimum, then this hand should bid 5♦ over 5♣ as our hand is better than a complete junk. It's even more so perfect with a spade and a diamond control.

[jdonn]

Why are people still responding 4NT even after reading gnasher's posts?

I'm all for getting where you are going quickly, but here you can clearly reach the right contract all the time by just bidding out your hand. Is it that it's too much work to take a couple extra rounds of the auction to reach the right contract?

[ArtK78]

I am always bidding at least 6♥ once partner opens the bidding. The question becomes how to find 7♥ or 7NT.

First, I respond 4NT which asks for ACES, not key cards (If I wanted to ask for key cards, I bid 2NT Jacoby or whatever one uses for a forcing heart raise and then bid 4NT or whatever key card bid you use (4♠ kickback for me)).

Partner shows one ace - that is fine. I continue the ask for specific kings. If partner has the diamond king, 7NT is easy. Otherwise, I will shoot out 7♥ which cannot be worse than a finesse and may be a claim anyway (partner can have either black suit Q or short spades or some other source of the 13th trick).

Obviously, if partner does not have any aces, I settle for 6♥.

[kfay]

jdonn, on Nov 24 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

Why are people still responding 4NT even after reading gnasher's posts?

I'm all for getting where you are going quickly, but here you can clearly reach the right contract all the time by just bidding out your hand. Is it that it's too much work to take a couple extra rounds of the auction to reach the right contract?

Don't bang your head against a wall, Josh.

[kenrexford]

I'm bidding 2♣. If I want to hear cues, this is usually the way to go.

Ideally, I hear a 2♦ rebid, and life is VERY good. I would then set hearts as trumps (2♥) and immediately find out whether partner does or does not have a spade control. If not, then the grand is out. If he does, it might be a stiff, so we have more work to do. So, when it matters, I hear a 2♠ call and cue 2NT to deny two top hearts (yeah, I know). If partner cues 3♣ (he has the club Queen) or 3♦ (he likel,y has the diamond King but no club Queen), I cue 3♥ and see if partner has the spade Ace. And so on...

If partner rebids hearts, weird.

More likely is that partner rebids 2♠ or raises clubs, in either event causing me to raise/set hearts with a 3♥ call. If partner had bid 2♠, he will now tell me whether he has the two top spades that are missing. If he does not, RKCB will tell me whether he has the Ace. I will be able to hear about the club Queen, which will tell me if I have a shot at ditching a spade, or about the diamond King, all on route.

If partner complains that I bid 2♣ with a doubleton and seven-card heart support, I'll tell him that four of my hearts were in a shadow and looked clike clubs.

[rbforster]

kenrexford, on Nov 24 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

If partner complains that I bid 2♣ with a doubleton and seven-card heart support, I'll tell him that four of my hearts were in a shadow and looked clike clubs.

lol. If that doesn't work, tell him you forgot your system for showing 7 card raises and AK♣ looked a lot like a 3 card suit which you normally respond 2♣ with anyway.

[paca1987]

This could sound dumb, but im not supporting Hearts in the bidding.

You have a problem playing keycard on this hand. If your pd shows 1/4 you will never be sure if he has the K♥ or the A♠.

I'm kinda crazy/creative, but im bidding 2♣ on that board.
Now if my pd bid 3♣ am just asking keycard, now if he has one i will blast 7♥
If he is bidding another thing im jumping to 4♣ to set is as trump, to ask keycard, and again blasting 7♥ if he has one.

This must sound crazy, but thats the way a crazy South American think.

PS: This will work in a world when the opps are silent, but if they bid you can still handle to get into the rigth spot
**Only bidding 2♣ if i cant ask for Aces in first place.
The ideal thing is to play 1M P 4N as Regular Keycard (Just 4A)

[ONEferBRID]

[quote name='P_Marlowe' date='Nov 24 2009, 10:22 AM']

If you know of a way to get a [sp] cue from Opener ( w/no shortness) below 4[he], please let me know. [/QUOTE]
Well, this is simple.

1H - 2NT (1)
3C (2) - 3H (3)
3S (4)

(1) Jacoby
(2) Min, no shortage
(3) waiting, demanding a cue, the meaning of 3H is similar to 3NT
(4) voila

With kind regards
Marlowe[/QUOTE]
....
Marlowe, ty.... I had not seen your version of Jacoby before,
but it works and answers my question.
I've seen the 3C! = minimum in Swedish2NT / Stenberg2NT, BUT
the 2NT is limit raise or better-- NOT GF ( as it apparently is in yours).
Therefore, the 3H rebid in these systems is the limit raise hand and can be passed if opener is a dead minimum.

[fred]

ArtK78, on Nov 24 2009, 04:42 PM, said:

I respond 4NT which asks for ACES, not key cards

I play that too as do others I know.

I am surprised more people didn't mention this possibility. It sure is a good agreement to have on this hand.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[mike777]

Maybe:


1h=2nt
4d=5d
(5h or 5s)?=6c
6s or 7h=7h


2nt=Bergen
4d=decent minimum and A or KD, deny C cue(deny stiff or void or A or K).
5d=cue, slam try
6c=cue, grand try.

[Phil]

4N is the only viable option for me, assuming it asks aces, not key cards. It will rightside the NT which is vital when partner does not have the ♠A, so we can subside in 6N. You would have to come up with an unnatural construction for 6N to fail.

If partner shows the ♠A, I am bidding 7N. I cannot find with confidence a doubleton spade which is the only thing that would make 7♥ superior to 7N, and the odds are good enough we can discover a black queen across to make 7 100%.

By the way, I think there are a lot of bad ideas from good posters here.

[pooltuna]

Phil, on Nov 24 2009, 09:17 PM, said:

4N is the only viable option for me, assuming it asks aces, not key cards. It will rightside the NT which is vital when partner does not have the ♠A, so we can subside in 6N. You would have to come up with an unnatural construction for 6N to fail.

If partner shows the ♠A, I am bidding 7N. I cannot find with confidence a doubleton spade which is the only thing that would make 7♥ superior to 7N, and the odds are good enough we can discover a black queen across to make 7 100%.

By the way, I think there are a lot of bad ideas from good posters here.

At IMPS I would probably play 7♠ as I can count to 13 with 5♥ + 3 minor suit ruffs and 5 non trump winners

[kenrexford]

Phil, on Nov 24 2009, 09:17 PM, said:

By the way, I think there are a lot of bad ideas from good posters here.

Whatever anyone comes up with, one thing is sure. No one has a means of describing this hand.

[Jlall]

1) 4N as being straight ace asking is standard imo, but I prefer to play it as keycard.

I don't think the argument "with keycard you can always bid 2N then 4N" is a great one, sometimes the opps will interfere, especially when you have the type of hand that might want to just bid keycard, and sometimes you won't want them to know anything about partner's hand, especially if you're gambling a bit trying to get a favorable lead.

I also think a hand that wants to ask for straight aces is extremely rare, probably at least 10 times less likely than a hand that might want to just ask for keycards, so while it's a good agreement when it comes up, it comes up really infrequently imo.

And even when you do have a straight aces hand, with that type of hand you can usually just bid your suit, set your own suit as trumps, and then ask for keycards and find out the same info.

2) I totally agree with gnasher that launching into aces/keycards is premature and more can be accomplished with a slower auction where we cuebid/learn about partner's shape etc. I just skimmed the thread though, and I haven't seen gnasher mention that their is a significant chance they will bid over 2N given our 12 card fit and interfere with our auction. Sorry if he did mention it, it is possible but I think we can deal with competition anyways, and we do have a lot of HCP so maybe they'll pass.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Nov 25 2009, 05:05 AM, said:

I just skimmed the thread though, and I haven't seen gnasher mention that their is a significant chance they will bid over 2N given our 12 card fit and interfere with our auction. Sorry if he did mention it, it is possible but I think we can deal with competition anyways, and we do have a lot of HCP so maybe they'll pass.

No, I didn't - I was too busy explaining cue-bidding to people who seem to think it became extinct in the 1960s.

You're right that intervention will interfere with my plan, but only if they go to the five-level. If they give up at the four-level, I'm in the same position as in one of my earlier posts.

Suppose it goes

  1♥ pass 2NT 5♦
  dbl pass
(partner's double is discouraging)

I'll need to have good agreements about what shows a diamond control and what asks for one. A reasonable approach is that 5NT denies first-round diamond control and anything else promises it. That would work - I'd bid 6♣, promising the minor-suit aces and denying first-round spade control.

In the real world, of course, I might not have discussed that, so the 5♦ bid might prevent our reaching the grand.

What's the greater risk? That they're going to preempt to the five level when partner has both ♠A and ♥K; or that partner has ♠A without ♥K, and opponents weren't going to go beyond the four-level?