[TylerE]

Dealer is on your right

(p) - p - (p) - 1♠
(X) - XX - (2♣) 2♦
3♣ - 3♥ !?!?

[Jlall]

lol

[cherdanno]

Tyler, this is really not an A/E topic.

[aguahombre]

Jlall, on Nov 23 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

lol

adding wtf, and dne to lol. Adding to Cherdanno, I don't think this is a bridge topic.

[P_Marlowe]

Why should it, coming from a hand to weak too open?

Of course it can be argued, that 3H showes fit, for diamonds (*),
which means, it is forcing, since the partnership wont play 3H in
this case, ..., but there was no hint, that 3H promised fit for ???

(*) Fit for spade should not be a valid option, but this is depend
on your agreement set.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

OK you asked!!

I think this should show:

AKx
void
xxxxxxx
Qxx

oh no wait then why redouble?

OK agree with the tla's.

[helene_t]

In standard method the 2♦ bid shows a minimum and a passed hand cannot force opposite a minimum opener. I think this principle still applies to a 4th seat opener albeit not to a 3rd seat opener. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

If the 3♥ bidder had not been a passed hand it would be forcing.

[P_Marlowe]

gwnn, on Nov 24 2009, 03:41 AM, said:

OK you asked!!

I think this should show:

AKx
void
xxxxxxx
Qxx

oh no wait then why redouble?

OK agree with the tla's.

How about 5431 with spade shortage, 10-11HCP?

A direct 2D / 2H bid could be weaker, and maybe your heart suit
is something like QJxxx, but the auction would than also say
xxx in clubs ...

With kind regards
Marlowe.

[gwnn]

no, that won't work. You can't force to game as a passed hand unless you have some crazy distribution. and you can't have a crazy distribution if you xx as a passed hand!

[P_Marlowe]

gwnn, on Nov 24 2009, 05:34 AM, said:

no, that won't work. You can't force to game as a passed hand unless you have some crazy distribution. and you can't have a crazy distribution if you xx as a passed hand!

Well, after a fit got discovered, the strength of a passed hand can
increase, so that the passed hand becomes a game force, and for
this, you dont need crazy distribution.

Game force = no fear of the 4 level.

In the current auction, 3D over the 3C would still show a reasonable
hand, but I can imagine, that for some 3D would just be competitive,
and since p had no interest playing 2Cx, and pass over 3C may be non
forcing (?!), ... but I agree, it becomes to get messy.

A important point is, that a new suit after the double does not need to
promise the world, I am pretty sure, tht even in NA they play NFB over a
t/o.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

do you have

x
qjxxx
AKxx
xxx

? and now you can game force??? what's wrong with bidding 3D? you did redouble last round didn't you?

[P_Marlowe]

gwnn, on Nov 24 2009, 06:16 AM, said:

do you have

x
qjxxx
AKxx
xxx

? and now you can game force??? what's wrong with bidding 3D? you did redouble last round didn't you?

Partner may still have a 3 card heart suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

so that's why you force to game? because partner may have a 3 card heart suit?

[TylerE]

The actual hand I had was like

Jx
AJTx
KQxx
xxx

I wanted to see if partner could do any of: Bid 3♠, bid 3N, rebid 4♦, etc. I think the bid has to be forcing because after the opponents raise are options for probing are very limited.

Oh yea, 3♥ (in the 4-2, with 4♠ and 5♦ cold) chalked up 140. Partner was 5=2=5=1

[gwnn]

so what's wrong with 3D with that unremarkable 11 count?

[P_Marlowe]

gwnn, on Nov 24 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

so that's why you force to game? because partner may have a 3 card heart suit?

No, I am not forcing to game, I am willing to stop in 4D, but 3H is a more serious
push torward game than 3D.
3D is just showing the fit, and a hand that bids 3D has maybe streched to make
the XX, afterall since we are a passed hand, partner wont play us for full values
anyway.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

TylerE, on Nov 24 2009, 07:36 AM, said:

The actual hand I had was like

Jx
AJTx
KQxx
xxx

I wanted to see if partner could do any of: Bid 3♠, bid 3N, rebid 4♦, etc. I think the bid has to be forcing because after the opponents raise are options for probing are very limited.

Oh yea, 3♥ (in the 4-2, with 4♠ and 5♦ cold) chalked up 140. Partner was 5=2=5=1

I think you are better positioned, if you bid 3S instead of 3H.
At least, if you have the partnership agreement in place, that
XX denies primary support.
In this case, 3S has to show diamonds besides the secondary
spade support.
And even if p is not on the same wavelength, 3S will ensure,
that you will play a reasonable contract.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I have nothing angainst 3D, but if one wants to bid on, than
I think 3S describes the hand better and is safer.

The alternative to 3D is of course 4D.

[phil_20686]

Surely no one actually thinks that this hands has a good enough heart suit to play in hearts after the xx? xx normally denies a suit good enough for a 2/1 response. Only sensible assesment is that partner has a very strong hand to play in diamonds. How about

x
Axxx
Kxxx
Axxx

if you would not open it. Could easily still have slam on opposite a 5-5 hand with short clubs which is what partners pull normally shows. Axxxx xx AQxxx x or similar could play nicely in 6d. Though it might be awkward on a trump lead. xx AKxx KJxx xxx could equally be a monster hand opposite AKxxx xxx Axxxx -. So it seems clear that you need a way to GF in diamonds on this auction. I struggled to creat any hands where i would xx that would wish to rebid 3h naturallly here. Seems v uncommon.

Phil

[helene_t]

I think Phil makes a good point, although I wouldn't try this playing with a human, playing with someone like Ken Rexford I think 3♥ should be a great diamond raise.

[TylerE]

That was exactly what I was thinking: e.g. that 3♥ has to be a hand with diamond support too good to bid 3♦.