[dcohio]

How well does the system work? I'm interested in playing a weak NT, and a friend recommended the Kaplan/Sheinwold book. I've started reading it, but was looking for any more input/resources.

Thanks

[TylerE]

Works well. 1m becomes sort of strong, since it's either 15+ or unbalanced with length in the minor. The main thing to discuss is how to show the Strong NT hand in a competitive auction.

[Phil]

2/1 + weak NT is fine. It doesn't affect a whole lot of auctions TBH.

The primary issue depends on your tendencies to open 5M332 with 1N, so you don't necessarily need to play 1N forcing if you can limit 1N to 11-12.

[awm]

In auctions where the opponents are silent, it's pretty easy to switch notrump ranges. But I think it requires quite a bit more work in competitive sequences.

For example, say the auction goes 1♣-2♥ and you have a 3253 nine-count. Playing a strong notrump, it is normal to pass here. You have no real hope of game opposite 12-14 balanced, and 3♦ is forcing and double shows four spades.

However, playing a weak notrump with the same auction and the same hand, you shouldn't pass. The problem is that partner often has 15-17 balanced, in which case you have game values. Partner will usually not balance with this hand at the two-level (maybe if he has 4234, but usually not). In fact, the best call is arguably 3♣, a call that I would never even consider playing a strong notrump (it could lead to a ridiculous 3-3 fit at the three-level). The point is that with 15-17 balanced partner bids 3NT, and if he has some shapely hand then he will usually have 5+♣ making 3♣ a very playable spot.

Other competitive issues can come up too, for example it's useful to have a way for opener to show the strong notrump in competition. Say the auction starts 1♣-P-1♠-2♥. Bidding 2NT is possible but seems like it has a wide range (15-19?) and is also rather dangerous when responder is minimum. A lot of people play that double here shows a strong notrump, which is fine but means that you're no longer playing support doubles if you are used to those, which may also have some effect on your continuations...

[helene_t]

Suppose you hold a 4=4=4=1 12 count, you open 1♦. P cannot respond 1NT with a decent 9-count as you would pass his 1NT response with an average 16 balanced. So he will bid 2♣ (or 3♣? or 2NT? Or some gadget?) with a 9-count with or without 3-card diamond support. You need a way to stop in a nonridiculous contract, sometimes 2M in a 4-3 is the last nonridoculous contract. Alternatively, open 1NT with those hands, even with (43)51 if the diamonds are not great.

Frances has some well thought through follow-ups to 1♦-2♣ AFAIR.

[babalu1997]

dcohio, on Nov 18 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

How well does the system work? I'm interested in playing a weak NT, and a friend recommended the Kaplan/Sheinwold book. I've started reading it, but was looking for any more input/resources.

Thanks

the minor sequences are great, i study them from here:

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=e.../ksupdated.html

the major seuqences, leave them as you already play, 1nt force etc...

i have never had trouble with the sequences 1d-p-2clubs that is one easy one to play.

but what is really fun is when you open 1 diamond and the opps bid 2hearts or 2 sapdes weak or overcall 1nt-- they are dead meat

[Jlall]

Eric Kokish swears by this system so it can't be too bad

[mike777]

dcohio, on Nov 18 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

How well does the system work?  I'm interested in playing a weak NT, and a friend recommended the Kaplan/Sheinwold book.  I've started reading it, but was looking for any more input/resources.

Thanks

I learned it as basically Eastern Scientific, See Chip Martel and Lew STansby's CC. They seem to do ok with it. Multi WC.


edit I note many seem to play Eastern Scientific as a strong nt but I learned it from Chip with a wk nt.

http://www.bridgemat....com/martel.pdf

[MickyB]

With regard to specifically playing 2/1 with a weak NT (as opposed to weak NT 5cM and potentially lighter 2/1 responses) -It exacerbates a common problem - 1M:1N, 2X:2M, ??? when opener has 15-17. Not being able to open those 1NT is a definite loss.

As has been said before, 1D:2C has to be biddable on decent 9-counts (assuming you aren't opening 1C on all 15-17 balanced hands).

[TylerE]

If opener is on 15-17 balanced he should just bid 2N over 1N. 1M-1N-2x should be distributional.

[Phil]

TylerE, on Nov 18 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

If opener is on 15-17 balanced he should just bid 2N over 1N. 1M-1N-2x should be distributional.

Gazzilli helps here.

[helene_t]

TylerE, on Nov 19 2009, 05:19 AM, said:

If opener is on 15-17 balanced he should just bid 2N over 1N. 1M-1N-2x should be distributional.

Wow and we just in another thread all agreed that it was criminal to pass a 1M opening holding a misfitting (albeit good) 5-count. Now if responding will take you to 2NT with 5+15 points, played by the weak hand.

Btw, also
1♣-1♥
1♠-1NT/2♣
and you are stuck with your balanced 15/16-count, unless you play that 1♠ shows five clubs so responder takes pref (or passes) with 6-7, and 1NT is 8-10. Or some such. Well at least that spares you for arguments about whether balanced hands must always rebid 1NT or not.

[mikeh]

MickyB, on Nov 18 2009, 04:09 PM, said:

With regard to specifically playing 2/1 with a weak NT (as opposed to weak NT 5cM and potentially lighter 2/1 responses) -It exacerbates a common problem - 1M:1N, 2X:2M, ??? when opener has 15-17. Not being able to open those 1NT is a definite loss.

As has been said before, 1D:2C has to be biddable on decent 9-counts (assuming you aren't opening 1C on all 15-17 balanced hands).

one simple solution is to rarely open the weak 1n with a 5 card major. That is how I play the method, and have had no problems.

Playing that opener will rebid 2♣ after 1M 1N with all 5=3=3=2 or 4=5=2=2 and then playing BART over 2♣ also reduces the problem (in strong NT as well as weak NT methods)

There are drawbacks to the weak notrump (just as there are advantages) but the ones described here are not, in practice, common or troublesome. I have played and continue to play weak 1N with 2/1 and the issues are no more troublesome than the (different) hand types that cause problems for strong NT methods. All systems have seams where certain hands are difficult. Identifying those for weak NT bidders is useful, but it is erroneous to then conclude that the method is inferior.

In essence: show me any method and I am certain that I (or anyone) could very quickly specify problem hand types or sequences.

[hanp]

I am not sure how your (mikeh's) methods solve the problem suggested by Mickyb.

With a 15-17 balanced hand you open 1H and rebid 2C after partner's 1NT. Then what do you do if partner bids 2H? And what do BART and opening 1NT with balanced 12-14 hands have to do with this?

Not meant as a comment on the quality of weak notrump systems, I think I just don't understand your post.

[mikeh]

hanp, on Nov 19 2009, 10:34 AM, said:

I am not sure how your (mikeh's) methods solve the problem suggested by Mickyb.

With a 15-17 balanced hand you open 1H and rebid 2C after partner's 1NT. Then what do you do if partner bids 2H? And what do BART and opening 1NT with balanced 12-14 hands have to do with this?

Not meant as a comment on the quality of weak notrump systems, I think I just don't understand your post.

1H 1N 2♣ 2H shows 8-10 with 2 hearts, when playing BART. With a weaker preference, responder bids 2♦ puppet to 2♥. On the former, with 15-17, opener either invites or bids game, depending on his exact hand and the vulnerability etc. On the latter, opener is warned not to bid again.

This works in many sequences, if playing a sophisticated form of BART. BART works, in essence, by allowing responder, on many hands, to define his strength and degree of fit and so lessens the guesswork for opener.

And it is important to realize that it is wrong to argue that these 15-17 3rd bid problems are caused by using a weak 1N. Who opens 1n on 2=5=2=4 hands? Are we not opening 1♥ and rebidding 2♣ over 1N? Are we not then in the same position? So how is the weak NT responsible for this problem?

I concede that we will face the sequence more often with weak NT than with strong, since with strong many routinely open all 5332 hands 1N (others tend not to hold 5 card majors for a strong 1N, still others will do it with hearts but not spades...due to the special rebid problems over 1♥ 1♠).

BART helps weak and strong notrumpers in these auctions. Gazilli may well do as good or better a job, but I have not played the method so can't really speak to it.

[hanp]

Thanks for your reply Mike, I now understand how you deal with this.

I don't find the strong notrump vs weak notrump discussion particularly interesting, I was merely wondering how you dealt with Mickyb's problem.

[raist]

kokish has kindly shared his 300+ page weak NT write up here -->

http://www.bridgewit...raftWkNTSys.zip

it'll probably be helpful