[Chamaco]

Hi all,
I would like to discuss with my partners/teammates forcing pass issues, both a low level and at high level bidding.

In particular the issues of the agreements I'd like to set would be:
- which sequences set a forcing pass;
- at 4+ level, what does , *VERY specifically* a forcing pass mean in terms of quick tricks and/or controls in opp suit.

Which are the sources you recommend which deal with this with lots of examples and details (e.g. specifies precisely the requirements for passing, bidding or doubling in high level auctions) ?
Low level is (apparently) easier, so most of the material, would be needed for strong competitive bidding that jump quickly to the 4-5-6 level.

Anything would be good: Commercial book titles and online material.
(e.g. I know of a Kantar booklet on forcing pass, hard to find though: yet someone has discouraged me to but, since it would say nothing more than commonsense, no real added value) .

Thanks !!

[the hog]

Here is what my partner and I play, Mauro:

When we are in a strong auctions and the opponents sacrifice:
Pass is only forcing on the condition that we are vulnerable, they are not and we have bid game.
Double in this situation is discouraging and pass is encouraging.
Pass followed by pulling the X is highly encouraging.

We open at the 1 level and they bid at the 5 level, Pass by responder is forcing

When deciding whether to sacrifice or whether to defend:
First to speak:
X – at least 2 defensive tricks
Pass – 0-1 defensive trick
Last to speak
X – 1 trick
Pass – 2 tricks
Defend – 0 tricks

[Cascade]

Ron

If partner Passes showing 0-1 trick and you have 0 tricks should you be sacrificing at least some of the time?

[Dwayne]

try this:

http://home.earthlin...er/forcpass.htm

Dwaynerino.
THIS IS NOT A BULLETIN BOARD

[Chamaco]

Dwayne, on Jun 29 2004, 11:57 AM, said:

try this:

http://home.earthlin...er/forcpass.htm

Thx a lot Dwayne, this is exactly the sort of material I am looking for.

Any further hint by other posters, along the same lines (just to have more examples) will be absolutely awesome !!

Just for the record:
the web link does not work with lowercase "forcpass.htm".
This one works:

http://home.earthlin...er/FORCPASS.htm

[inquiry]

I am sure I gave you this suggestion before, but I will repeat it again here. Go to Dan Neill's page ( http://www.geocities...neill_2000/sys/ ) and click on the link to Robson/Segal "notes". This is actually a PDF of their 1993 book entitled, "Partnership Bidding at Bridge, The contested auction".

As you imagine a book dealing only with contested (well, and potentially contested) auctions, it has a lot on forcing pass. Sadly it is not is such a tight little package as the web link given in post above. But the great news, it has a lot of examples and explainations why it should or should not be forcing.

In chapter 2, they have an entire section on setting up "forcing pass" by responder (pages 45-53), but they cover it many other places as well. For instance, forcing passes after overcalls are covered on page 65, and by opener on page 147, and then a very nice long section after you have established a fit on pages 149-154. Forcing pass after a takeout double are covered in chapter 5, staring on page 188, and focing passes when you have no fit begins on 217.

The great thing about reading Robson/Segal is that the reason why and examples are given. If you like, you can choose to play forcing pass exactly like they do, but when you choose to change something, you are forced to consider why you want to play it differently, and thinking about the situations and establishing rules you like will avoid disasters at the table.

Obvioulsy, you have to do some serious reading if you want to cover all the forcing pass situations given in an expansive text liike that one.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jun 29 2004, 01:32 PM, said:

I am sure I gave you this suggestion before, but I will repeat it again here. Go to Dan Neill's page ( http://www.geocities...neill_2000/sys/ ) and click on the link to Robson/Segal "notes". This is actually a PDF of their 1993 book entitled, "Partnership Bidding at Bridge, The contested auction".

As you imagine a book dealing only with contested (well, and potentially contested) auctions, it has a lot on forcing pass. Sadly it is not is such a tight little package as the web link given in post above. But the great news, it has a lot of examples and explainations why it should or should not be forcing.

In chapter 2, they have an entire section on setting up "forcing pass" by responder (pages 45-53), but they cover it many other places as well. For instance, forcing passes after overcalls are covered on page 65, and by opener on page 147, and then a very nice long section after you have established a fit on pages 149-154. Forcing pass after a takeout double are covered in chapter 5, staring on page 188, and focing passes when you have no fit begins on 217.

The great thing about reading Robson/Segal is that the reason why and examples are given. If you like, you can choose to play forcing pass exactly like they do, but when you choose to change something, you are forced to consider why you want to play it differently, and thinking about the situations and establishing rules you like will avoid disasters at the table.

Obvioulsy, you have to do some serious reading if you want to cover all the forcing pass situations given in an expansive text liike that one.

Ben

Ben,
thanks for your suggestion, everytime they are very helpful.

I have downloaded and printed that book months ago (when u posted that suggestion)

I like that chapter and have read it (not really studied hard yet).

The problem for me is to have examples that are straightforward right now (maybe imopossible with forcing passes).
The chapter has two "problems":

1) reverses the use of pass and double from std;
2) uses in his examples fit showing raises. (not that i do not like them, but I doi not want to introduce an extra factor of complication: learning new things, I want that for the bidding examples, only *known* tools are used).

Since I have to use the material to *try* to explain it to some players which are even less experienced than me on bidding and hand evaluation, I thought it was not the right material, so, before accepting to use it a reference, I was looking for an alternative source which uses: 1) std meaning of pass/dbl; b ) does not use fit showing raises.

[inquiry]

Ok... well the link provided by Dwayne, as good as it is, doesn't cover a number of topics. It deals with forcing pass only at the five level and more.

Forcing pass also occurs at lower levels, as you noted in your original post. Let's look at a couple of cases below the game level...

Below game, in game forcing situation...say after 2♣ opening bid, or 2/1 GF response. One example...

1♠=(P)=2♣=2♥
Pass

Ok, here pass is forcing, as 2♣ established game force. Question becomes is pass weaker than bidding, stronger than bidding, or what? And if pass is forcing, what does double mean? Here, you could play double as penatly (especially if there are frisky bidders you play against), or you could play it as takeout showing fair first suit and the fourth suit.

I happen to play a double as "takeout", so if I pass, there is a good chance I have a penalty double hand that I am waiting for partner to reopen with double. When he does double, I then pass. However, if I pass and then pull partner's double I show a better hand than if I had bid direclty over the overcall. If double here is for penalty, I think a pass is suppose to show a defensive hand not good enough for direct double. Partner with a defensive hand and some of their suit is suppose to double, otherwise, bid on. But again, if you pass and then pull your partners double you show a better hand.

Below game, fit found, forced to the next level...

1♠-(2♥-2♠-Pass
3♣- (3♦)-Pass

Here. opener's 3♣ bid forced to 3♠, so over 3♦ the weakest bid is a bid of 3♠, not pass. Here pass is FORCING (and since we have fit, a double here would suggest playing 3♦X. So the pass by responder is game invitiational in light of the 3♣, and responder may be planning on bidding game anway if opener tries to signoff in 3♠.

1♠-(2NT)-3♣-3♦
Pass

Here 3♣ was unusual versus unusual, showing limit raise plus in ♠. Over 3♦, the weakest bid by opener would be 3♠. Don't make the mistake of passing with a weak hand thinking, defending 3♦ will be better than bidding and maybe going down in 3♠... a pass invites 4♠ if your partner has a little extra than a weak limit raise.

Ben

[luis]

I play the following with my current pd:

Pass is forcing when:
- We have bid game VUL and they bid a 5 level contract
- We bid a cuebid, fitshowing jump or SPl that forces our side to 10 tricks
- When a game forcing situation was created during the bidding

A direct raise never creates a forcing pass situation
A direct bid to game never creates a forcing pass situation


When pass is forcing we play the Meckwell philosophy:

Pass = "I'd have doubled this" (If pd dbls a pull then is slamish)
Dbl = "If it were up to me I'd have bid 5"
Bid = "The weakest of all"

Luis

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jun 29 2004, 03:24 PM, said:

Ok... well the link provided by Dwayne, as good as it is, doesn't cover a number of topics. It deals with forcing pass only at the five level and more.

Ben, the 5+ level forcing pass is exactly the area of forcing pass where we need more concrete examples, because:

- we need to know whether a pass is forcing or not, but...
- THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS HAND EVALUATION: WHEN TO USE A FORCING PASS, WHEN TO BID ON, WHEN TO DBL.
My generic knowledge is:
- double with a weak hand that does not foresee outbidding opponents and making
- double with wasted values = potential defensive tricks
- bid with a goodish hand with high ODR
- pass in between.
- pass+pull as slam try asking for control in opps suit (correct?)

Yet when I explain this to my teammates, they say (or might say):
- when is your hand weak to justify doubling even without defensive tricks in their suit ? when should you pass instead and leave it up to pard ? Based on what do u evaluate this ?
- when is your ODR high enough to justify outbidding ?

I think I am capable to explain to my teammates the underlying *general* principles of the forcing pass, but I need many *concrete* examples to communicate the message in practical terms.
I may try to construct examples for this, but I am not experienced enough to do this, nor I am sure I'd pick the right ones.


That's why I was looking for concrete example hands, and especially for competitive bidding at the 5+ level, describing concretely the type of holdings suggested for the various choices (defensive tricks in opp suit, losers/ controls in opps suit, etc).
------------------------

Admittedly, there is a lot on hand evaluation of the ODR potential, in Robson/Segal, but I have tried to show my teamates that material, and it would require a much lenghtier preliminary discussion of fitshowing raises and other things.