[Fluffy]

Scoring: IMP

- - p
1♣-1♠
p

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[gwnn]

West. Don't pass with an opening hand and 4 card support.

[helene_t]

agree with Csaba

[suokko]

east failed to open the opening hand Ok. Just joking. But west doesn't have great opening values either but should still bid 2♠.

Which hand of them is more near opening values? Let's ask Mr Petkov.
East: 9 HCP + 2 controls + 5♠ + 5♦ + 5♠ - 1♣ = 25 points which is just under opening values. One could argue to upgrade the good spots in long suits to make it opening hand but zar points are already over evaluating your 5-5 distribution mildly.

West: 12 HCP + 3 controls + 4♠ + 4♣ + 4♠ - 2 ♦ = 27 points which is clear opener.

So west should raise to 2♠. and east to game when his hand grows from 9 card spade fit to real opening values.

How good is this game? Not very great. Below 40% mark which is barely good enough for vuln games in IMPs. So I wouldn't blame anyone much for missing this game.

♥ guess 50% and on trump lead you need to setup a ♦ trick. 5♠+2ruffs (might only get one if trumps are 3-1 and defense manages to play them 3 times)+♥+♦ is not enough.

[bill1157]

actually I am surprised that the opponents let it pass out at 1♠

Bill

[cherdanno]

suokko, on Nov 9 2009, 01:15 PM, said:

♥ guess 50% and on trump lead you need to setup a ♦ trick. 5♠+2ruffs (might only get one if trumps are 3-1 and defense manages to play them 3 times)+♥+♦ is not enough.

You will have a lot of information about the heart guess.

[dcohio]

I'm opening 2S as east. From there we have a simple 2S-4S auction. Whether we make or not is a different story

[jdonn]

I have to admit I might duplicate the auction. Which probably just proves how dumb it is for west to pass the response with 4 card support. But I mean just look at west's hand without looking at east's, it does look pretty terrible.

[ArtK78]

On values, the West hand is a pass of partner's 1♠ response. But he should bid 2♠ anyway, if for no other reason than it may make it more difficult for the opponents to balance. And, while the West hand is certainly nothing to write home about, with 4 card spade support it is now a full opening bid.

Offhand, I would say that the only times that the opponents do not balance over 1♠ is when you have play for 4♠.

[nigel_k]

No blame.

East could open but pass is ok as well. West should normally raise with four card support and a full opener but the actual hand has very soft values so pass is reasonable. And the game is marginal, as suokko pointed out.

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Nov 9 2009, 01:53 PM, said:

I have to admit I might duplicate the auction. Which probably just proves how dumb it is for west to pass the response with 4 card support. But I mean just look at west's hand without looking at east's, it does look pretty terrible.

yeah I might duplicate it too. I guess the warning trigger might be that we are V. NV is not so catastrophic

[mikeh]

I don't blame anyone.

Looks like a normal auction to me. And opening 2♠ as East, playing 'standard' weak twos or showing spades and a minor, weak two values, wouldn't change much for most, I would think. Why would West, with all those soft, soft values, raise the stakes?

***** happens. If you never miss a game, you bid too much.

[655321]

Agree with gwnn, I hate the pass of 1♠ with 4 card support and an opening hand.

[dellache]

I agree with West's pass : the hand is bad, and if I bid 2♠ facing a passed hand, my guess is that most of the time we'll end up in 3♠, down 1 or making. And I don't expect to be often in more than 40% games. For me passing 1♠ is clearcut.

I would have opened 1♠ OTOH. Excellent suit, no rebid problems, 6 losers. This is borderline though. I don't care if my partner thinks I have more in defensive tricks.

BTW I'm not sure I want to be in game with these 2 hands. In 4♠, I'll roughly need diamonds to be at worse 4-2, and if they break 4-2 I have to handle the 3-1 trump splits. Even then I may have to guess Hearts, and even if I think I can guess them 2/3 of the time (optimistic), my guess is that I'll make that game 40% of the time. Sometimes I'll be down 2.

All in all, if I loose imps on this one I would just blame cards, and say that that they had no talent this time.

[jdonn]

Well let's be fair, I'm definitely sure I want to be in this game! It's not nearly 100% but it's plenty good enough.

[Jlall]

Passing with 4 spades is bad because:

1) You might miss game when partner has a shapely maximum! The 4th trump is very important in these situations! Gee that's what happened here!

2) You let them into your auction very easily when you know they have a fit/fits and ample high cards!

[kenrexford]

I personally don't have a cure on this one like I do in many other sequences. But, in many parallel sequences, I do. Maybe I need one here.

The problem with this sequence is that Responder has a player hand just shy of an opening, and wrong for a weak two. That often (usually?) means a two-suiter.

For this reason, I am starting more and more to like two-suited intermediate responses by Responder.

Over third-seat 1♠, I have been using 3♣ and 3♦ to show this type of hand with the bid minor and hearts, 2NT both minors.

Over 3rd-seat 1♥, 2NT minors and 2♠ for spades and a minor (2NT asks).

Over minors, I typically play 2♥ as 5♥, 4-5♠ weakish and 2♠ as 5♠, 4-5♥ and stronger. This does not solve all problems, and it misses this one.

Perhaps 1♣-P-2♦ as 5♦, 5 of one of the majors works (maybe with paradox rebids?).

Over 1♦, greater problem.

[gnasher]

I dislike the idea of passing partner's 1-level response when I have a normal opening bid. I hate the idea of doing so when I have a normal opening bid and four-card support.

I've never understood the point of this tactic anyway. If partner wasn't a passed hand, you'd raise to 2♠ without thought. Why does the fact that partner has passed suddenly make this more dangerous? And why does anyone think that the opponents will let you play in 1♠ if that's the right spot?

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Nov 9 2009, 05:32 PM, said:

I dislike the idea of passing partner's 1-level response when I have a normal opening bid.  I hate the idea of doing so when I have a normal opening bid and four-card support.

I've never understood the point of this tactic anyway.  If partner wasn't a passed hand, you'd raise to 2♠ without thought.  Why does the fact that partner has passed suddenly make this more dangerous?  And why does anyone think that the opponents will let you play in 1♠ if that's the right spot?

Well as an idiot passer, in response to your questions:

- Obviously the reason you don't pass when partner's an unpassed hand is that he is unlimited, not because raising is at all safe. It's no more dangerous to raise when partner's a passed hand than when partner's an unpassed hand, but that isn't really part of anyone's argument.
- I do not expect the opponents to let me play in 1♠. But passing 1♠ avoids partner making a game try and getting to 3♠ and maybe going down, or bidding game and going down (such as if he was short in hearts instead of clubs here). If the opponents balance and I get the chance I'll even take the push to 2♠ myself, but in that case partner has been warned.

To address other points brought up:

- I don't think it's a meaningful comparison to equate passing or not here to having a full opening bid. It should only have to do with the chances of having game, getting too high, letting the opponents in, etc. Whether or not we would have opened in any other seat is moot.
- I don't see why letting the opponents in when I have this hand is bad. I'll be fine with it if they end up in 3 of something and I have this offensive powerhouse.

All that being said, Justin has been telling me for years not to pass on a full opener with 4 card support. I guess I'll never learn, or maybe one day.

[nigel_k]

I agree with jdonn.

Nobody is saying (I think) that you should normally pass a minimum with four card support. But the actual hand is not a normal hand, it's significantly worse than that. You're going nowhere if partner is balanced, and if he has shape then there'll be a lot of wastage with those secondary honours in the side suits. I'd evaluate it as about a 10.5.

Kaplan/Rubens calls it 10.25 without the assumption that partner is unbalanced with spades which makes it worse. By way of comparison, a hand like QJxx K10x xx AQ9x is worth 11.85.