[pirate22]

Your hand is, and it comes up many times(shape)

J10973--V--Q106--AKQ97 double checked 13 cards

one can create vun/non/all ,etc criteria, in case there are prefences,and allowing for the headings aggr/pass/antic-

What opening bid does one select what is the best approach,under anticipation either opps or partner will bid hts.

example u open 1 spade? or you open 1cl?,or do you pass?and back in later.
this has been a thorn in my side many many times,and i have tried all 3 ways,
any inputs regards

[MarkDean]

Almost everybody would open 1♠ in all positions.
I would open 1♣, and then be mocked by both my partner, and my teammates.

[gwnn]

This is an obvious 1♠ opener. You have 12 points and 5-5.

[pooltuna]

1♠

[Phil]

1♠ is standard. 1♣ was standard 30 years ago.

You can dig up some old threads on the reasons why.

[pirate22]

yes fully agree 1sp is standard,but excluding teams,opps get to 3n/t or 4hts--
tried that,and somewhat embarresing,
have also opened 1cl and judged the situation,with a better succes rate,by either repeating clubs if pard silent opps not in n/t or bidding spades at some level(lowest value bid),and backing in later,also with a modicom success rate.
phil how do i look up old threads onthis subject regards

[nigel_k]

No doubt 1♠ with 5-5 in the blacks is 'standard' but so are many other sub-optimal approaches. The fact that people who play four card majors are more likely to open 1♣ suggests there's a kind of logical fallacy at work here: opening 1♠ implies you have five spades, therefore having five spades implies you open 1♠. I expect this is how 1♠ became standard rather than any good reason.

I have always opened these 1♣ and have yet to be convinced otherwise. A minimum opener and/or bad clubs may sway me towards 1♠ but not on this hand. It's hard to analyze which is best. I've done some hand generation but it comes down to making the right decisions in competition which you can't really do properly knowing all four hands.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on Nov 7 2009, 12:39 PM, said:

1♠ is standard. 1♣ was standard 30 years ago.

You can dig up some old threads on the reasons why.

yep, and 30 years or so ago the Bridge World had a debate on that subject. They couldn't convince me then to open 1C, and now I am too old to change.
If this hand can't make me switch to 1C, I guess I'm locked in.

[Phil]

nigel_k, on Nov 8 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

No doubt 1♠ with 5-5 in the blacks is 'standard' but so are many other sub-optimal approaches. The fact that people who play four card majors are more likely to open 1♣ suggests there's a kind of logical fallacy at work here: opening 1♠ implies you have five spades, therefore having five spades implies you open 1♠. I expect this is how 1♠ became standard rather than any good reason.

I have always opened these 1♣ and have yet to be convinced otherwise. A minimum opener and/or bad clubs may sway me towards 1♠ but not on this hand. It's hard to analyze which is best. I've done some hand generation but it comes down to making the right decisions in competition which you can't really do properly knowing all four hands.

The reason 1♠ is more popular is because sometimes the opponents bid hearts or diamonds and someone preempts. When pard has three card support, spades can easily get buried. Please don't imply that you can just bid spades at the appropriate level.

If anything, a minimum hand is the best time to open 1♣ with a 5-5. If pard makes a 2/1 over 1♠ it can be a problem getting clubs into the picture.

Pirate, the easiest way to find a thread is to ask Gwnn to look it up

Thats what the search button is for.

[jdonn]

nigel_k, on Nov 8 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

No doubt 1♠ with 5-5 in the blacks is 'standard' but so are many other sub-optimal approaches. The fact that people who play four card majors are more likely to open 1♣ suggests there's a kind of logical fallacy at work here: opening 1♠ implies you have five spades, therefore having five spades implies you open 1♠. I expect this is how 1♠ became standard rather than any good reason.

I don't think so, there are lots of reasons, mostly having to do with competition.

• You describe more of your hand at once.
  
• You preempt the opponents much better.
  
• You avoid having to overbid spades if the opponents jack up the auction.
  
• You avoid partner thinking you have more clubs than spades.
  
• You avoid missing 5-3 spade fits when the auction gets high before your rebid.

There are players who still open 1♣ but they are very few and very far between.

By the way I don't think there are too many sub-optimal approaches that evolved from the optimal approach being popular in the past. That sort of thing doesn't happen unless decades of bridge players are clueless.

By the way, your conclusion that there's a logical fallacy doesn't follow from "lots of people who play 4 card majors open 1♣ with 5-5 in the blacks." That could mean many things. Here are just a few.

- People who play 5 card majors and open 1♠ are basing it on a logical fallacy.
- 1♠ is a better opening and people who play 5 card majors bid better.
- 1♣ is a better opening and people who play 4 card majors bid better.
- People play 5 card majors because they like to open a major when they can, whereas people who play 4 card majors are happier to open in a minor.

[655321]

nigel_k, on Nov 8 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

No doubt 1♠ with 5-5 in the blacks is 'standard' but so are many other sub-optimal approaches. The fact that people who play four card majors are more likely to open 1♣ suggests there's a kind of logical fallacy at work here: opening 1♠ implies you have five spades, therefore having five spades implies you open 1♠. I expect this is how 1♠ became standard rather than any good reason.

Um, thanks.

But on the positive side, I see a bright future for you in the Water Cooler!

[Jlall]

655321, on Nov 8 2009, 04:52 PM, said:

nigel_k, on Nov 8 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

No doubt 1♠ with 5-5 in the blacks is 'standard' but so are many other sub-optimal approaches. The fact that people who play four card majors are more likely to open 1♣ suggests there's a kind of logical fallacy at work here: opening 1♠ implies you have five spades, therefore having five spades implies you open 1♠. I expect this is how 1♠ became standard rather than any good reason.

Um, thanks.

But on the positive side, I see a bright future for you in the Water Cooler!

hahahaha

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Nov 8 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

nigel_k, on Nov 8 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

No doubt 1♠ with 5-5 in the blacks is 'standard' but so are many other sub-optimal approaches. The fact that people who play four card majors are more likely to open 1♣ suggests there's a kind of logical fallacy at work here: opening 1♠ implies you have five spades, therefore having five spades implies you open 1♠. I expect this is how 1♠ became standard rather than any good reason.

I don't think so, there are lots of reasons, mostly having to do with competition.

• You describe more of your hand at once.
  
• You preempt the opponents much better.
  
• You avoid having to overbid spades if the opponents jack up the auction.
  
• You avoid partner thinking you have more clubs than spades.
  
• You avoid missing 5-3 spade fits when the auction gets high before your rebid.

There are players who still open 1♣ but they are very few and very far between.

By the way I don't think there are too many sub-optimal approaches that evolved from the optimal approach being popular in the past. That sort of thing doesn't happen unless decades of bridge players are clueless.

By the way, your conclusion that there's a logical fallacy doesn't follow from "lots of people who play 4 card majors open 1♣ with 5-5 in the blacks." That could mean many things. Here are just a few.

- People who play 5 card majors and open 1♠ are basing it on a logical fallacy.
- 1♠ is a better opening and people who play 5 card majors bid better.
- 1♣ is a better opening and people who play 4 card majors bid better.
- People play 5 card majors because they like to open a major when they can, whereas people who play 4 card majors are happier to open in a minor.

you didn't disagree with the "best hand to do it with is a minimal open {attempting to paraphrase)" I think a strong reverse hand is the best time to open 1♣ because it is hard to rob you of your spade bid and you aren't lying to partner when you do. You still have minor issues with showing 5xy6. BTW I agree with all the rest

[aguahombre]

pool, that did not make sense to me. Reverses should not be created with equal length in the two suits. that just fools partner. A high reverse after 2/1 gets the strength message across without distorting the relative lengths

[Codo]

jdonn, on Nov 9 2009, 06:41 AM, said:

[*]You describe more of your hand at once.
[*]You preempt the opponents much better.
[*]You avoid having to overbid spades if the opponents jack up the auction.
[*]You avoid partner thinking you have more clubs than spades.
[*]You avoid missing 5-3 spade fits when the auction gets high before your rebid.
[/LIST]There are players who still open 1♣ but they are very few and very far between.

Eehhhm?

1. Right you describe more of the hand at once. This is fine and needful when the opponents jump around. Bad luck that partner will lead your suit against 3 NT....

2. You preempt your partner much better too. It is getting akward after 1 Spade 2 Diamond undisturbed... Even 1 Spade 1 NT is not the best start for you...
So you basically hope that the bidding starts which much competetion, because else you had beeter opened 1 Club.

3. It is 100 % easier to bid clubs first and spades later then vice versa...

4. Again, just when they compete like devils...

5. This is the same as No 1.

There is IMO just one reason why "everybody" opens 1 Spade: It is a major and your main goal is a major game. And if it gets competetive there are more hands where you may lose with 1 Club then with 1 Spade.


I have played both ways and see no difference in the approaches.

[gwnn]

I still remember Fred's nice post about a 6(01)6 hand when he was shocked that he was the only one considering opening 1♣ with that hand. This was about a year ago (can't find the post) and just these days I tried 1♣ on 6-6 and it worked. (well, by worked I mean I wasn't worse off)

[andy_h]

Best I could do was this.

[gwnn]

yes that's the one, very funny thread, thanks!

[P_Marlowe]

1S.

The systemic bid, and this has nothing to do with aggressive, passive
and anticipation.

You have agreed before hand to play a system, stick with it, if you dont,
well ..., good luck, but dont hope to keep your partnership alive for a
long time.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

pirate22, on Nov 7 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

yes fully agree 1sp is standard,but excluding teams,opps get to 3n/t or 4hts--
tried that,and somewhat embarresing,
have also opened 1cl and judged the situation,with a better succes rate,by either repeating clubs if pard silent opps not in n/t or bidding spades at some level(lowest value bid),and backing in later,also with a modicom success rate.
phil how do i look up old threads onthis subject regards

I suggest for the future, that you phrase your queston differently.

If you want to discuss the adv. / disadv. to open 1C or 1S with 5-5 in the
black suits.
And you should discuss this issue with p beforehand, you dont decide this,
if you get dealt this at the table, because otherwise partner has no chance
at all to know, what is going on.

The major reason I am oppossed to 1C is, that I dislike making exceptions,
with equal length in two suits with 5 or more cards, I open the higher one.

Add. you have the benefit, that most partnership will have better followups
after a major suit opening than after a minor suit opening, which means they
will be better placed after a 1S opening.
This is at least true for my regular partnership.

We also have better agreements, if they intervene against a 1S opening
than if they intervene against a 1C opening, so for us 1S as an opening bid
is clear.

With kind regards
Marlowe