[Chamaco]

Hi all,
Having read Fred Gitelman's article on LTTC I liked it very much.

I was wondering whether the same method canbe used for minors.
My doubt arises from the following:
in the style used by Gitelman, when a major fit is found, the step below 4 of the major is Last Train (LTTC), artificial, often says nothing about the suit just bid.

However, to verify the coontrol is the LTTC suit, there is still available the bid of 5 of the major, which in Gitelman's framework is "Lackwood" = RKCB asking for keycards AND control in the LTTC suit.

Instead, for minors, I cannot think of anything similar to "Lackwood", since there is no intermediate step between game and slam (such 5 of the major is for major suit slams).

So I am puzzled to know if experts try to use LTTC in minor slams investigations, and how they substitute "Lackwood" in that case.

If so, where can I find documentation ?

Thanks !

[keylime]

I much rather have you use Minorwood or Redwood instead of LTTC - LTTC wasn't really designed for the minors.

With regards to Lackwood, don't know many top pairs using that off hand. Will have to look that up to make sure that's true.

[Chamaco]

keylime, on Jun 19 2004, 11:39 PM, said:

I much rather have you use Minorwood or Redwood instead of LTTC - LTTC wasn't really designed for the minors.

With regards to Lackwood, don't know many top pairs using that off hand. Will have to look that up to make sure that's true.

Ty Dwayne,
can you suggest me where to lookup for Redwood ? (dunno what it is).

[Free]

Redwood is:

when there is a ♣ fit => 4♦ = RKC ♣
when there is a ♦ fit => 4♥ = RKC ♦

♦ and ♥ are red, so that's where the name comes from.

However, there's a little danger in using this. When one or more players bid ♦ or ♥, there might be confusion weither this is to play or not. Usually experts solve this by bidding the next suit to ask for keycards (like 4♠ after an auction like 1♥-1♠-3♦-...).

The advantage is that you won't bypass your own suit (unless the confusion made you bid one step higher):

trump ♣, 4♦ RKC => 4♥ 30, 4♠ 41, 4NT 2-Q, 5♣ 2+Q
trump ♦, 4♥ RKC => 4♠ 30, 4NT 41, 5♣ 2-Q, 5♦ 2+Q

same goes for the ♥ suit where you can use 4♠ as RKC, and with ♠ suit you'll use 4NT.

[keylime]

FYI, the lovely Mrs. and I use BOTH treatments, but get a lot more use out of Minorwood because of Free's excellent admonition (i.e. we play 4 of a major previous bid as to play, period), and because we have certain sequences where we need to make a sliding bid due to lack of room.

[inquiry]

Last train for the minors works just almost as well as last train for the major. Of course, no chance for minorwood. In one partnership, I use 4♠ as LT for clubs, and 5♣ as LT for diamonds if, and only if, control in spades (first case) and control in clubs (second case) has already been promised. Otherwise, I use these as cue-bids (and obviously, still slam trying). However, in my ohter partnerships, I do not play last train for the minors at all (since no serious 3NT available). I like minorwood instead of redwood.

Ben

[henrik_r]

When minors are trumphs I recently started playing a concept similar to unserious 3nt. When a minor has been agreed upon as trumphs the following applies:

Cuebid below 4 in the agreed minor: Says nothing about the seriousness of the slamtry yet. Seriousness will be revealed later in the auction
4 in the agreed minor : Unserious slamtry
Cuebid above 4 in the agreed minor: Serious slamtry

Regards, Henrik

[Chamaco]

henrik_r, on Jun 23 2004, 02:36 PM, said:

When minors are trumphs I recently started playing a concept similar to unserious 3nt. When a minor has been agreed upon as trumphs the  following applies:

Cuebid below 4 in the agreed minor: Says nothing about the seriousness of the slamtry yet. Seriousness will be revealed later in the auction
4 in the agreed minor : Unserious slamtry
Cuebid above 4 in the agreed minor: Serious slamtry

Regards, Henrik

I thought about that.
However I got stuck on one thing:
how do you know when a bid is Ace asking ?
I do not want to use 4NT as ace (or keycard ) ask when the agreed suit is a minor.

a) if I use Minorwood RCKB (4 of the agreed minor), i cannot use it as "Unserious slamtry"

b ) if I use kickback RCKB (step above trump suit), I cannot use it as cuebid, and I add one more indetermination on the controls besides the LTTC suit. Basicall I will end up having 2 undefined suits for controls, for which cuebids are unavailable: 1) the kickback suit (step above trumps); 2) the LTTC suit (step below trumps)

c) if i use 4 of the opposite minor as ace ask (4 clubs for diam, 4 diams for clubs), I have similar problems to kickback (for clubs), and if diams are agreed I cannot use 4C as cuebid (serious or unserious).