[raist]

when the bidding goes

1♥-(3♦)

what do you guys play 4♦ as?

1. ♥ support with a definite ♦ control
2. ♥ support may or may not have ♦control?
3. any other possible meaning? (i doubt it)

now my question for those who play it as definitely promising a D control would be
what do you bid with this hand

Ax
KTxx
Qxx
AQTx

you are too strong to bid 4H directly, but neither do you have a D control

[olliebol]

Well i play variant 2 so would bid 4 diamonds as a 4 heart bid based on miltons.

if you dont i see no alternative to 4 hearts here unless you play 4 cl as a cuebid.

Maybe someone does?

[Jlall]

4D does not show a control and just shows about a solid opener + in support of hearts.

[ArtK78]

Jlall, on Nov 2 2009, 11:44 AM, said:

4D does not show a control and just shows about a solid opener + in support of hearts.

Agree.

Except that when I have a diamond control it shows a diamond control.

The bid means what I want it to mean at the time.

Seriously, it is just a strong heart raise.

[Fluffy]

4♦ doesn't show control. It stablishes forcing pass at the 5 level. (or any other actually)

[P_Marlowe]

4D is a strong heart raise, creating a forcing pass seq,
does not necesarily promise a diamond control.

The given hand is an example for a hand, which bids 4D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[raist]

i am in favour of it not promising a D control
but just for the sake of discussion,


if 4D does not necessarily promise D control
would you not face problems in finding out the existence of a D control later when you wish to explore for slam?

is this solved by cuebidding at the 5 level?

[skjaeran]

Strong heart raise, not promising a control.

It's more useful, since it's far more frequent than hands with a control.

[P_Marlowe]

raist, on Nov 2 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

i am in favour of it not promising a D control
but just for the sake of discussion,


if 4D does not necessarily promise D control
would you not face problems in finding out the existence of a D control later when you wish to explore for slam?

is this solved by cuebidding at the 5 level?

Hi,

One possible solution.

Another is, that 5 of the agreed trump suit asks about control
in their suit, under certain circumstances.
I dont play this stuff, since this is to complicate for me and my
partner, but it is the more standard meanins of 5 of a major.
I was looking for a page descirbing the 5 of a major convention,
but was not able to find one.
5 of a major asks either for trump quality, a control in an open
suit, or is a quantiative invite, there are rules, what the specific
question is ...

But before you think about slam, you should ask yourself, what
are your options, if they preempt further.
Say, the partner of the 3D bidder bids 5D.

Now you need the FP, to solve certain problematic situations,
play your own contract, defend, invite to slam.
The forcing raise prepares your side, if they sacrifice against your
game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Obviously it can't promise a control since you sometimes have a hand too strong for 4♥ without a control.

Playing with Ken Rexford, I would assume that opener with a slamish hand either asks for keycards by bidding 4♠ (kickback) if he has a diamond control, or gives unsolicited answer to kickback (4NT and up) if he doesn't.

[akhare]

Strong ♥ raise, says nothing about ♦ control.