[mr1303]

Scoring: MP

---

Auction proceeded:

2NT (20-22) (3S) 4H all pass

North's argument: I thought that a 20-22 2NT opening would get the strength across better than a 1D opening, and it isn't far off being balanced. 4H is to play, and I can't bid again after that

South's argument: With the 3S overcall coming in when vulnerable, the chances of 2 top spade losers seems very likely, and there is no way to "right-side" the contract, if partner has a holding like Kx(x). The 5 level doesn't really seem safe, and 5H wouldn't ask for a spade control anyway (in this partnership).

Who is more responsible for this one?

[blackshoe]

Why does it have to be either partner's fault?

I blame East.

[jjbrr]

North should bid again after 4♥.

Edit: While he certainly could have opened 1♦, I think many people would open 2N. Having opened 2N and hearing partner come in with 4♥, this hand is no longer anywhere near the 20-21 balanced hand he promised. It's closer to worth like 26 given the stiff ace in the enemy suit and AKJxx outside with Hxx in trumps.

I think bidding 4♠ is clear. And I'm not sure I would sign off if partner bids 5♥, though I guess it's probably right. He won't bid 5♥ with his actual hand of course, so the problem then is finding the grand. The point is North's hand couldn't possibly be any better and passing is pretty bad.

[ArtK78]

Personally, I do not think that many players would open the North hand 2NT.

There are many reasons not to open the North hand 2NT. The most obvious is the singleton spade. Another is the possession of a very good 5 card suit that may serve as a suitable trump suit for game or slam. Third, the hand is full of controls, which indicates that play in a suit may be better than play in notrump. Finally, the hand is very flexible, as it offers good play for game or slam in many strains - starting the auction with 2NT is a sure way to avoid finding the right strain.

So, much as a person who psyches deserves the lion's share of any disaster than ensues later in the auction, so does a person who opens 2NT on a hand such as the North hand in this thread.

[maggieb]

I think South's 4♥ bid just shows a lack of judgment, if he was so worried about spades he could just bid 6N, which I bet makes (much) more often than not.

That said, north's reasons for not starting with 1♦ are not really sensible to me, and I think his bidding is worse, since it indicates a lack of understanding of basic bridge rather than just a lack of judgment. He has a hand which is good for slam in hearts, diamonds, or clubs, which is not over-strength for a 1♦ opener, which can continue with a normal 3♣ JS after a 1♠ response, etc.

I agree that North should bid again over 4♥ having started this way, but it's very close to me, and maybe I am really wrong about this.

jjbrr said:

And I'm not sure I would sign off if partner bids 5♥

Construct a hand for me where 6♥ is good contract, but partner will sign off in 5♥ over 4♠.

[jjbrr]

xx
AQJxx
xxxx
xx

is decent for grand, but dont really see much reason to bid anything other than 5♥. Take the ♥J away and "good slam" becomes more debatable, but certainly playable.

Edit: But I guess partner would double with 2542 with bad hearts. forgive me.

[Jlall]

Wow really disagree that north can bid over 4H. South can just have any hand with 6 hearts or any hand with 4+ points and 5 hearts. It would be like north bidding over a texas transfer except south has a weaker range of hands than that even. Yes partner is less likely to have spade wastage because of the overcall but that doesn't mean a 2N opener can slam try with Kxx of trumps and a 20 count after partner just bids game.

Souths 4H bid was bad, he had a slam try (at least) without the overcall and still has one. 5H would be appropriate.

Norths 2N opener is poor. You can bid your hand easily enough after opening 1D and rebidding 3C, no need to distort. The hand is very prime aka suit oriented and 2N does not really describe it very well. Imagine how hard minor suit slams will be to bid after a 2N opener.

[jjbrr]

The range of S hands that make the 5 level totally unsafe is very small. And it's not clear all of them would even bid 4♥, i think.

[maggieb]

jjbrr, on Oct 23 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

The range of S hands that make the 5 level totally unsafe is very small. And it's not clear all of them would even bid 4♥, i think.

Whenever partner is missing the ♥A you can be in serious trouble (they lead a spade and hold up from ♥Axxx).

[jjbrr]

maggieb, on Oct 23 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

jjbrr, on Oct 23 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

The range of S hands that make the 5 level totally unsafe is very small. And it's not clear all of them would even bid 4♥, i think.

Whenever partner is missing the ♥A you can be in serious trouble (they lead a spade and hold up from ♥Axxx).

Thanks, I'm aware. But sometimes partner has a stiff ♦ or ♣, the ♦Q, or the ♣K to give me extra chances. It's very clear that 2533, 3523, 3532 hands without the ♥A are unsafe, but partner sometimes doesn't only have queens in his hand!

[pooltuna]

Jlall, on Oct 23 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

Wow really disagree that north can bid over 4H. South can just have any hand with 6 hearts or any hand with 4+ points and 5 hearts. It would be like north bidding over a texas transfer except south has a weaker range of hands than that even. Yes partner is less likely to have spade wastage because of the overcall but that doesn't mean a 2N opener can slam try with Kxx of trumps and a 20 count after partner just bids game.

Souths 4H bid was bad, he had a slam try (at least) without the overcall and still has one. 5H would be appropriate.

Norths 2N opener is poor. You can bid your hand easily enough after opening 1D and rebidding 3C, no need to distort. The hand is very prime aka suit oriented and 2N does not really describe it very well. Imagine how hard minor suit slams will be to bid after a 2N opener.

Mostly agree with Justin here but I have no real problem with opening 2NT as I would probably do that myself. Better players than I, have advocated opening 2NT so yeah you might run into the occasional problem but for reaching making games this is your surest shot.

[Jlall]

Whenever partner has 5 hearts the 5 level will be unsafe unless they are AQJxx. Even when partner has AQJxx of hearts give him a typical:

xxx
AQJxx
xx
xxx

They lead a spade and we...do what? The 5 level is unsafe opposite this hand for sure.

5-3 fits can be deceptive when one hand only has entries in trumps.

[bid_em_up]

..

[ONEferBRID]

mr1303, on Oct 23 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: Both Scoring: MP

♠ A ♥ Kxx ♦ AKJxx ♣ AJxx ♠ Jx ♥ AQJxxx ♦ Qxxx ♣ x

Auction proceeded:

2NT (20-22) (3S) 4H all pass

Who is more responsible for this one?

North, rich in controls, "has a feeling" he is safe at the 5-level and goes 4S! = RKC for Hts.
When he finds the hA, he can ask for the hQ.
When he finds that, but no K's, he can then ask for the Diam Q :

2NT - ( 3S ) - 4H
4S!        - 5C ( 2nd step, 1 key )
5D        - 5NT ( hQ and no K's )
6D        - 6NT ( dQ )
7H

[jdonn]

I really really hate the 2NT opening, think south was way too cautious, and think north bidding over 4♥ could easily be right but is a crapshoot. If north really feels like he should bid over 4♥ though then my blame to him goes for opening 2NT to begin with and putting himself in that predicament. There are no rebid problems after 1♦ so I just don't know why he wouldn't simply do that. I definitely blame north more, but south does get some.

[peachy]

I don't like North's 2NT opening. It is much too suit oriented (has eight controls, has a singleton, and has 90% of its values in aces and kings). Many off-shape 2NT openings turn out to be "slam killers". So, if any blame is to be dished out, it clearly goes to the 2NT opening.

[Phil]

Jlall, on Oct 23 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

(good initial thoughts)

Agree on every point.

[weicc]

agree with Jlall
South should bid 5♥

[nigel_k]

North 65%.

Strongly disagree with 2NT. In general, you'll tend to have easier auctions after a one level opening and there are two reasons not to do so:

1) There is a decent chance the 1 level opening will be passed out and you'll miss a game; or

2) You have a rebid problem after a 1 level opening

This hand doesn't fit the first category.

The second category covers balanced hands that are too good for a non forcing 2NT rebid (i.e. a 'normal' 2NT opening) and 6332 hands that are too good to jump rebid the six card suit. Here you have an easy 3♣ GF rebid.

Also, 5431 shapes are especially difficult to bid well after starting with 2NT because there are so many playable denominations.

Having opened 2NT I would really want to bid over 4♥ but probably wouldn't do it. South probably should do more but the choice of 4♥ is more understandable than North's 2NT.