[subvert]

Scoring: IMP

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N S
1♠ 2♠
3♥ 4♥
4♠

2S:8-10p
assign blame,thanks!

[manudude03]

removed after seeing auction

[rhm]

North 100%

He needs ideal cards. Partner never has them.
Opponents silence makes it likely that partner has minor suit values.
It is not the end of the world if you miss a vulnerable game on a combined 18-20 HCP.
Make North slightly stronger, a major suit queen or a void in ♣ and 3 little ♦ and the bidding would be alright.

Rainer Herrmann

[jdonn]

South 100%. North can clearly have game opposite a constructive raise, in fact you play them largely so hands like his can make a game try. Obviously south has the heart fit which is good, but his holding in each of the other three suits sucks big time and his strength is very average. I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of a north hand that makes game opposite south but won't GF after a constructive raise.

[rhm]

jdonn, on Oct 18 2009, 09:50 AM, said:

South 100%. North can clearly have game opposite a constructive raise, in fact you play them largely so hands like his can make a game try. Obviously south has the heart fit which is good, but his holding in each of the other three suits sucks big time and his strength is very average. I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of a north hand that makes game opposite south but won't GF after a constructive raise.

The question is: Is 3♥ forcing and if yes, how is South supposed to show that he prefers to play in ♥.
It is true that you would like to sign off, but in ♥.
Unfortunately this is not possible if 3♥ is forcing.
As it turns out it does not matter whether you play in ♥ or ♠, but if anybody can anticipate this it is North not South.
From South perspective North is more likely to have a much stronger hand with 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors than the actual one.
From South perspective with a likely trick more in ♥, I would rather overbid and be in game in ♥ than playing 3♠.

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

jdonn, on Oct 18 2009, 09:50 AM, said:

South 100%. North can clearly have game opposite a constructive raise, in fact you play them largely so hands like his can make a game try. Obviously south has the heart fit which is good, but his holding in each of the other three suits sucks big time and his strength is very average. I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of a north hand that makes game opposite south but won't GF after a constructive raise.

So, what you are saying is North would just bid 4S with AKXXXX KQXX XX X, but not with AKQJXX KXXX XX X? Just asking --not an argument. I make the first one as a little over 40 percent (good) and the second as a little under 20 percent (bad). Trying to learn more in my old age about the art of blasting

[jdonn]

If you admit south is overbidding (to help his chances of finding the right suit) then how can you give him 0%?

[rhm]

jdonn, on Oct 18 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

If you admit south is overbidding (to help his chances of finding the right suit) then how can you give him 0%?

If I would do the same, How can I blame him
I'd rather overbid than play in the wrong strain.

Rainer Herrmann

[jdonn]

rhm, on Oct 18 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 18 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

If you admit south is overbidding (to help his chances of finding the right suit) then how can you give him 0%?

If I would do the same, How can I blame him
I'd rather overbid than play in the wrong strain.

Rainer Herrmann

Haha isn't that the same as saying every problem is either 100-0, 0-100, or 50-50?

[fromageGB]

North 80%, south 20%.

North is a good minimum for an opening, and 3♥ has to be a forcing game try, but why? The hand is not strong enough to envisage game to be likely opposite a random good 9 count. Why should partner (the lead coming through him) have quick tricks in the minors AND heart honours AND the ♠Q (or most of these)? I think Qxx Qxx Kxx Kxxx is almost the BEST you could hope for, and 10 tricks looks very unlikely.

South does not have a maximum, and the minor holdings look a little wasted on the bidding. 3♠ is better.

[gwnn]

why is Kxx Kxxx opposite my xx x almost BEST? Just curious.

[fromageGB]

No, I am not saying the best fitting cards, but a typical good holding that would bid the spade game opposite a game try. Opener for the trial bid would more normally have something like AKxxx AJxx Ax xx, and responder is entitled to think his minor holdings of Kxx Kxxx are good.

[matmat]

gwnn, on Oct 18 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

why is Kxx Kxxx opposite my xx x almost BEST? Just curious.

because it's almost Axx Axxx

[gnasher]

rhm, on Oct 18 2009, 04:22 PM, said:

From South perspective North is more likely to have a much stronger hand with 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors than the actual one.
From South perspective with a likely trick more in ♥, I would rather overbid and be in game in ♥ than playing 3♠.

Why are hearts likely to play a trick better than spades opposite a game-try?

[gwnn]

I think AKxxx AJxx Ax xx is a clear 4♠ bid over 8-10. Also I don't think Qxx Qxx Kxxx Kxx is a maximum 8-10 raise. It has no touching honors, the worst possible shape, no aces. In the context of 'what can opener hope for' it's an extremely terrible hand. I guess this might be a case of 'gustibus non disputandum est' but I think you're very pessimistic if you make game tries with a hand that good and only get to hope for random 4333 hands when you try for game.

[aguahombre]

Not being that familiar with constructive raises, but rather choosing to evaluate my raises later depending on the nature of pard's game try, I am just asking this out of ignorance:

Is South's 8-loser nine count with 3 bad trumps etc, a constructive raise?

[nigel_k]

South 90%.

South overbid as he should know the minor suit cards are close to worthless and he doesn't have much to cover partner's major suit losers. I don't know if North is worth a game try but it is not unreasonable.

However if spades are not 2-2 it looks like opponents are close to making 4♦ or even 3NT. If spades are 2-2 you have some play for 4♠.

[dellache]

I blame in order :
1. North for overbidding with more than 5 loosers.
2. The system for not allowing north to show 6S, 6 loosers, and short Clubs.
If you change the 2 minor queens into K♦ it becomes OK. If you change it into K♣ it remains terrible.

Usual trial bids are too often useless : you rarely know when to accept with borderline hands (Rosenberg wrote something clever about this in his book "Bridge Zia and me"). Here it's not the 4th heart which is important : it's the short club, and the fact that pard need a max plus no wasted values in clubs (ironically, 3♥ in the system I play shows... 6 loosers and short clubs... and pard has an easy signoff)

[pooltuna]

subvert, on Oct 18 2009, 08:08 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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N S
1♠ 2♠
3♥ 4♥
4♠

2S:8-10p
assign blame,thanks!

if you mean 2♠ is supposed to be a constructive raise then it is an upgrade for me. That being said I have ♥ help so I don't find S at fault. Actually think it is just bad luck.

[Jlall]

looks ok to me, unlucky