[Dwayne]

Give these guys a break.

I've read through all 39 replies thus far to Cheech's original post and if I get his right, you (collectively):

- either like the frivolous chat or don't like it
- find the jokes amusing or don't
- want the commentators to stick to technical comment only or not
- like some commentators or dislike them.
- others you dislike or alternatively like.

Hmm.. seems you can't please all of the people all of the time.

No wait...we can. [lightbulb illuminates]. Instead of having say:
Closed Room: English language commentary
Open Room: Italian Commentary (or other by design)

We encourage Roland to set up the Vugraph as:
Closed Room: Serious, Dry Commentary only (max 2 non-technical comments per board)
Open Room: Laff-a-minute. Warning: Commentators may discuss private lives.

That should do it. Suit me too.

Dwaynold Duck.
Planet Bollywood.

[nikos59]

Chamaco, on Jun 25 2004, 07:55 PM, said:

nikos59, on Jun 25 2004, 07:46 PM, said:

Still, there are always some esteemed users who
will insist that some commentators have no idea
of bridge and of the real world in general.

I hope you do not refer to myself.

No -someone else said in this thread that on a
particular match recently transmitted there were
two commentators that had no idea of bridge and
of the real world. This offending post apparently
was considered kosher because it did not insult
noone personally.
As to the rest, my own view is that my gratitude
towards BBO and the commentators is so immense
that I consider it improper to criticize commentators
-you know perhaps the proverb about looking a
gift horse in the mouth.

[Dwayne]

Nikos, I too saw the original comment that said:

Quote

In the match france against someone else, might well have been italy, I got...err... nerved of the commentators of having no idea of bridge nor the real world.

but quite frankly didn't think it worthy of a response.

Perhaps the original author would like to cite examples where commentators demonstrably had "no idea of the real world".

Take your time.

Dwayne-offski.
Table 14, Lake Titicaca.

[aisha759]

What does +++ stand for? (i have seen it in a few profiles) How is a normal vugraph spectator supposed to know what those plusses stand for?
A little humour here and there does no harm whatsoever IMHO.......I have nothiced (as an avid vugraph kibber) that a lot of the commentators are coke addicts I just hope they are betting on the classic one
I would personally bet on something a bit more substantial(like cash), but to each is own
I have seen a lot of illuminating comments, and a few not so inspiring...

I have abstained from asking commentators any questions because they are busy, and i respect that.

Still, very much appreciate and enjoy the experience

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT EVERYTHING PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

Aisha

[Cascade]

Aisha

By default commentators cannot hear private messages directed to them. If they do not mind hearing those messages then they can add +++ to their profile.

Yellow commentators can receive comments by default. I receive many and reply to most and use some to inform the audience e.g. Someone told me of a brilliant potential false card last night.

I know I make a number of not inspiring comments it is so easy to make a blunder. Sometimes it seems easier than when one is playing.

I hope I make at least some illuminating comments.

[Erkson]

aisha759, on Jun 27 2004, 12:46 AM, said:

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT EVERYTHING PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

Here people don't complain about everything but about a problem perfectly expressed by Chamaco in his original post, which some agree with -I am one of them- and other disagree.

For me his post had yet a result : vacuous chitchat has disappeared lately, consecutively comments' quality has improved. I hope that it won't be forgotten fast. If so I hope he will post again.

Erkson

[aisha759]

I did not in anyway want to belittle the problem which was presented in this thread, "stop complaining people" was out of line, I admit

Many of these commentators seem to be good friends and enjoy a common sense of humour, and some inside jokes. Many still do a wonderful job whilst joking..

Cascade, thank you for the info on what +++ means....

Language is a barrier for some, hence the comments which puzzle some viewers.

It is a good thread, and worth the discussion and the ideas presented, I apologize if i have offended anyone.....

Regards,

Aisha

[slothy]

Hi Guys & Gals,

I feel i have an insatiable itch to comment here .

This, by the way, impinges not only on the dynamics of VuGraph commentary, but on other things that have been discussed in this forum, with a few people having particularly strong views about what people EXPECT and what people believe they have some right not to have to tolerate or be subjected to, and one of the reasons why my posting-rate has dropped (besides being busier than usual )

I find it difficult to appreciate what the actual complaint is, however legitimately they are expressing it: people seem to want to suggest that they are NOT complaining but, in my mind, there is a distinct and tangible undercurrent of dissatisfaction advocated by some people with the status quo; some more vociferous than others and others just wanting to point out nicely and diplomatically recommendations for improvement of what they see as not up to scratch.

And if there is a dissatisfaction, what proposal do people have for its resolution??? This to me is the hardest rub!! Dwayne's proposal (the best in my opinion)?

I will try to put this in context:

The other week, i had my first 5th Chair mentoring session.

It was extremely difficult to:

1) concentrate on the game at hand AS WELL AS
2) attempt to provide some sort of meaningful real-time dialogue as to the bidding - before the hand was played- and to the play of the hand as the hand progressed AS WELL AS
3) have to reply to a few messages sent to me by friends during the session.

What was even more challenging was that i felt there was a certain level of expectation on my part to provide it. Luckily, more because of the character, and her insistence, of my mentee than anything else, the pressure on me to fulfil this commentatorial function eased and I was made to feel more comfortable expressing myself, alongside peppering it with perhaps worthwhile comments, and this, hopefully made it more enjoyable, more fun and perhaps anything that i did say that had some instructional merit stood out more: more because there was less pressure on me rather than her feeling that she was learning less!!!!.

As to whether it was more instructional than if we hadnt 'changed tack' (or whether it was instructional at all hee hee) is another matter.

OK, now take this scenario above and EXPLODE it exponentially: SUDDENLY
1)You dont have an audience of ONE but ONE THOUSAND.
2)You are not the sole commentator but competing for window space with 4 other people. You start writing something and another person writes what you are in the process of writing (grrrr). The pressure to say something is there e.g. the 'I've started so i'll finish' syndrome.
3) You have a small posse of ego-bloated people in the audience who contradict an analytical comment you made in good faith and want you to know you are wrong, and insist that you have acknowledged their amazing and wise insight.
4) You are not teaching someone a system you are familiar with but are commenting on one, or a couple, of systems that you may only have a cursory appreciation of and are inscribed in a system portfolio that has more chapters than the Bible.
5) The level of expectation and technical merit of what you are writing is under constant scrutiny.

I am basically paraphrasing what Uday said in his post just perhaps a bit more dramatically. (so you can point the finger at him if you disagree with what i am saying )

Taking these 'pressures' above, you want:
1) the commentators to be focussed
2) fully alert
3) not make aside comments (or only when it is 'fit')
4) make meaningful and insightful comments about strategy and recommended lines of play 'on the fly' (not forgetting that a human can only bash the keyboard so many times a minute [never mind trying to find where the 'y' is on the keyboard] and the cards are played at a pace that may make a particular comment subsequently obselete and irrelevant)
5) predict the bidding sequence and play of the cards at the expense of being pilloried if they get it wrong???

AND for people who are doing this voluntarily and in their own time?????

For those who want to complain: I think you should try it. In fact offer your services to 5th Chair and, IMVHO, you will soon change your tune.

As for the coke comments that my next point. But not now gotta run.

Alex

[EarlPurple]

- I'd like to see rooms where anyone can make comments. I think it would be great.

- Yes, many commentators do do a good job and put a lot of effort in, but in many ways they are "priveleged".

- Different commentators have different styles. Perhaps there could be different rooms for the same games, or different channels. That way you could also have the "public chat" channel for anyone who is not among the elite. And yes, the one thing that can make watching the game most painful for me is having a comment to make but being unable to make it.

[anssibragge]

I'm watching currently Bulgaria - Poland on the BBO, and we have 3 active commentators; Dinos1, Szalay and Barnets (tho he's not that active).

None of the have +++ in the profile. We do have one yellow in the room, I messaged him if he'd be kind to bring this to the commentators, but as usual, nothing has happened in the last 10 mins. Well, I, as a yellow might be 10 minutes away fetching a beer and sending a message to the multimedia network...

Anyway. Have the commentators been "qualified" somehow in the games, "invited" or just "good we'd have you around this time"?

Can any yellow comment as an commentator? Or any Star player?

abe

[Cascade]

anssibragge, on Jun 27 2004, 01:08 PM, said:

Can any yellow comment as an commentator? Or any Star player?

Any Yellow has the privilege to comment at a vugraph table without being ungagged.

However it would not be normal for a Yellow to comment without being invited to commentate. There might be occasional exception circumstances where a non-invited Yellow might comment at a vugraph table. And may a few times where a Yellow misdirects his chat to the vugraph table since he is automatically enabled

[Chamaco]

slothy, on Jun 27 2004, 02:33 PM, said:

For those who want to complain: I think you should try it. In fact offer your services to 5th Chair and, IMVHO, you will soon change your tune.

I will speak only for my self, obviously

1) I know what it means to be a volunteer.
I have volunteered for free and stoill do in activities where I am skilled.
I volunteered for BBO Italy for things I can help to: translating things from english to italian and vice versa.
Also, I am a Chess Master and have devoted for free MUCH of my chess mentoring time during the last 15 years both online and live (obviously not on BBO ).

2) when I mentor, my questions at the end of the session is to receive by the pupils/audience comments and suggestions on how to do the explanations. I am happy of feedback, it helps to improve my level of mentoring.

3) Speaking of commentators.
I had to say that *for some specific commentators*, who I have happened to see quite often in the competitions I watched, the level was not up to the level that I was used to at the beginning of BBO.
I have to say that they are not many, so in a sense, I understand that some posts replied in this thread (e.g. Rado's post, and a few others) listing several of the wonderful commentators we have on BBO Vugraph.
Still, I did not think it was nice and proper to mention the names I referred to, so I simply described what kind of comments I like and what not.
This is feedback, I believe.
It is also criticism in a sense, but not destructive, since it is suggested the lines for improvement.

5) The lines I would like to see improved is specifically when some experts seem to get bored of the hand.
This never happens with some commentators (the ones I like).
Others, when dummy goes down, sometimes just comment: "A dull parttscore for E-W" and then turn to some jokes publicly with friends, when many more technical comments could be added, which may seem superfluous and obvious to an expert but not to lesser players.

6) if a commentators does not speak in depth of the hand because he has not the technical skills to do it under pressure, I have no problem with it.
What I find frustrating is when expert - who have indeed such skills - do not do it.
Ben (Inquiry) suggested in one post that sometimes one has the impression that only when there is a possibilityt of a truiple progressive 7-ways squeeze do they find the hand challenging enough to enter the discussion of the play of the hand.
I agree with him.
Much of the times it would possible in a "boring " hand to discuss typical card combinations or falsecards.
A non expert would have trouble to do it, and this is not a problem for me.
But I find extremely pleasant when experts, during dull phases, make such comments on fundamental card play techniques.

7) I think feed back is the key to improvement, as long as it is expressed properly. If the policy should be that if I do not like some commentators'style, I should just shut up just because they do it for free, I do not like it. I still believe that a proper and polite feedback should be allowed.
Nevertheless I will accept to shut my mouth if that's how things are supposed to be...

8) Finally, I repeat, these are ONLY expectations, NOT requirements. This all is for free and thankful for it. Commentators may obviously ignore or not the feedback.
I just thought it was right to let them know what some part of the audience like (as well I am glad that other posters have expressed their own opinion different from mine). I hope I was not wrong...

[slothy]

Dear Chamaco et Rest Of Ze Wurld,

Before i continue where i left off....

My Humble Self, on Jun 27 2004, 02:33 PM, said:

For those who want to complain: I think you should try it. In fact offer your services to 5th Chair and, IMVHO, you will soon change your tune.

Just to clear a minor point up....In case you thought i was referring to you (which i wholeheatedly was hee hee ..just joking) i would classify you quite unashamedly as

My Humble Self, on Jun 27 2004, 02:33 PM, said:

...and others just wanting to point out nicely and diplomatically recommendations for improvement of what they see as not up to scratch.

If this description, Chamaco, in any way undermines your macho, "bash-'em-over-the head" credibility in the forum please send me a Personal Message and i will make a point of re-highlighting it in red jajaja

My main irritation was with other people (not necessarily in this thread), and for them to remain nameless, who, I believe, express themselves in such a way that they think they know better and have answers for everything and ooze a sense of superciliousness that makes me wanna projectile vomit. (I dont do so only because i have a new monitor and my stock of screen-wipes is running low.) I don't care whether it is their command of English or otherwise which they use as an excuse: there is a way of discussing and projecting criticism (and vomit hee hee) in such a way that it gets listened to by those who may gain by doing so and, frankly, there are other ways in which it, quite justifiably, gets ignored by the 'powers-that-be' as it comes over as offensive, ill-thought-out and more about having one's own voice heard rather then about having what one wrote actioned.

Anyway, that my gripe for the day. (well, it ain't over yet, so who knows?)

As you started the thread, you may have thought i was directing that particular comment at you. I wasn't. (that doesnt mean that in a future thread my opinion may change )

Anyway, back to the battle-field..

Uff my lunch-break at work (( STILL havent posted what i wanted to write but just wanted to clear that up

Alex

[Chamaco]

slothy, on Jun 28 2004, 01:02 PM, said:

Dear Chamaco et Rest Of Ze Wurld,

Before i continue where i left off....

My Humble Self, on Jun 27 2004, 02:33 PM, said:

For those who want to complain: I think you should try it. In fact offer your services to 5th Chair and, IMVHO, you will soon change your tune.

Just to clear a minor point up....In case you thought i was referring to you (which i wholeheatedly was hee hee ..just joking) i would classify you quite unashamedly as

My Humble Self, on Jun 27 2004, 02:33 PM, said:

...and others just wanting to point out nicely and diplomatically recommendations for improvement of what they see as not up to scratch.

If this description, Chamaco, in any way undermines your macho, "bash-'em-over-the head" credibility in the forum please send me a Personal Message and i will make a point of re-highlighting it in red jajaja

My main irritation was with other people (not necessarily in this thread), and for them to remain nameless, who, I believe, express themselves in such a way that they think they know better and have answers for everything and ooze a sense of superciliousness that makes me wanna projectile vomit. (I dont do so only because i have a new monitor and my stock of screen-wipes is running low.) I don't care whether it is their command of English or otherwise which they use as an excuse: there is a way of discussing and projecting criticism (and vomit hee hee) in such a way that it gets listened to by those who may gain by doing so and, frankly, there are other ways in which it, quite justifiably, gets ignored by the 'powers-that-be' as it comes over as offensive, ill-thought-out and more about having one's own voice heard rather then about having what one wrote actioned.

Anyway, that my gripe for the day. (well, it ain't over yet, so who knows?)

As you started the thread, you may have thought i was directing that particular comment at you. I wasn't. (that doesnt mean that in a future thread my opinion may change )

Anyway, back to the battle-field..

Uff my lunch-break at work (( STILL havent posted what i wanted to write but just wanted to clear that up

Alex

LOL @ Slothy !!!
So much for all my attempts to be mistaken for the bloodthirsty Sandokan, the Tiger of Mompracem !!

[JRG]

slothy, on Jun 27 2004, 08:33 AM, said:

Hi Guys & Gals,

I feel i have an insatiable itch to comment here .
(snip)

Has this got something to do with your nickname?

[rigour6]

As a person who has done commentary at sporting events, it's not as easy as it looks, I agree.

I think the major cause is that for some of these commentators, it seems obvious the sort of comments Fred makes. They aren't even thinking about the kinds of things most of us average (or worse) players are. So it's hard to know how to dumb it down without having people say well gosh, I knew that!

Personally, I am dumb and so the dumber down they can dumb it down the more I get out of it. But I also enjoy just the playful banter.

Amazingly enough, I watch the Vugraph for the games, not the commentators.

Fred spoiled us though, because he's the best.

[Chamaco]

rigour6, on Dec 13 2004, 09:45 PM, said:

As a person who has done commentary at sporting events, it's not as easy as it looks, I agree.

I think the major cause is that for some of these commentators, it seems obvious the sort of comments Fred makes.  They aren't even thinking about the kinds of things most of us average (or worse) players are.  So it's hard to know how to dumb it down without having people say well gosh, I knew that!

Personally, I am dumb and so the dumber down they can dumb it down the more I get out of it.  But I also enjoy just the playful banter. 

Amazingly enough, I watch the Vugraph for the games, not the commentators. 

Fred spoiled us though, because he's the best.

First of all, welcome to the BB Forum rigour (it seems to me this is your first post ? if not, ignore my welcome ).

Secondly, I agree with your points: most probably some commentators cannot fully understand the needs of several mid-low level players, because their level is far superior.

So the main meaning of this thread was, in a way, to serve as a reminder, that there is nothing wrong lowering the comments level down to apparently trivial points, *as long as the comments is technical and not a talk show dealing much rather of cokes or football or people's socks rather than bridge* :-) (yes, there have been SEVERAL recent sessions where the above were the most popular topics rather than bridge and every hand was just dismissed quickly as probably too easy to comment upon;
and I will repeat here that, IMO - joking is a nice way to entertain audience, but not when it is done for over 80% of the playing time)

And yes, Fred definitely spoiled us :-) but there are indeed some commentators who stick to the technical details without being boring.
Praise to them ! :-)

[flytoox]

Cascade, on Jun 25 2004, 11:36 PM, said:

I think you underestimate the parochial natural of the users. There are many many people who want to watch their own country play.

I field many questions like "When are Turkey on vugraph?", "Is the Sweden Demark game on tonight?" etc etc

Cannot agree more. I was hoping China's match would be lived all the time:)