[Cyberyeti]

Scoring: IMP

1♠-P-1N-2♥
3♠-P*-4♠-5♦
X-5♥-P-P
X

---

The pass over 3♠ was agreed slow.

I cashed the A♠ then mistakenly cashed the A♥, then realised that if declarer had the ♦AQ, the A♣ ran if I didn't cash it, so we only got 300.

We asked for a ruling and the result was adjusted back to 4♠.

My questions are:

Do you agree with the adjustment back to 4♠ ?

How many tricks do you say 4♠ makes if you do adjust ?

[jallerton]

1. Yes, I agree with adjusting back to 4♠. Given East's raise to 4♠, North can hardly have been considering doubling 3♠ for penalties, ergo a pause in excess of the normal 'stop' period implies that North was considering competing. Hence South's 5♦ is demonstrably suggested by the hesitation. It's hardly obvious for South to go to the 5-level by himself so Pass is surely a logical alternative.

2. 4♠ might make 12, 11, 10 or even (on a very bad day) 9 tricks so it is clear to award a weighting ruling. Maybe 9 tricks (which needs a ♦ lead or switch and misguess in ♣) is sufficiently unlikely to be included in the final ruling, but it would also be reasonable to assign a likelihood of say 10% to this result.

[RMB1]

I think pass is a logical alternative to 5♦ and the hesitation suggests any bid over pass. So adjustment to 4♠ is OK.

North is likely to lead partner's suit. If declarer plays three rounds of spades and then use ♦A as an entry to take ♣ finesse, drawing the last trump when ♣A wins, that is 12 tricks (just losing ♠Q). So I could say 4♠+2. I would probably want to includes some weighting of fewer tricks.

Robin

[Cyberyeti]

OK, this is what panned out. The director adjusted to 4♠=, but something neither he or I picked up on at the time was that he said that it was obvious to lead a diamond. Of course as partner had bid the suit ... D'oh.

A club lead is as likely as a diamond, and a heart also in the frame I'd suggest. A spade is not completely stupid either.

The result at the other table was 4♠+1, so we still lost an Imp.

The winners of the swiss teams were well clear, then there was a team on 94 and us tied with somebody on 93. We needed 2 more Imps for a VP.

How are fractional Imps dealt with for conversion to VPs ? We were never going to get all of 480, but is the 5♦ bid that never was authorised info to us ? If it is, I don't feel 50% of 450 and 50% of 480 is unreasonable as on a diamond lead you duck the first, win the second, take the club finesse and then play a trump. On a club lead you have 12 easy tricks.

On a heart or spade lead you play trumps, and then you have to work out what to do if he switches to a diamond or leads a second heart. Some of the time you go for it and make 12, some you don't and make 11.

[peachy]

In many locations, Pass over the 3S is supposed to be slow (about ten seconds) whether the Stop card was used or not. If there is no mandated pause, it is normal IMO to be a little slower than regular tempo, whatever that is.
But maybe there was pause beyond some 10 sec, or maybe you don't have stop-card in use. I'd like to know, before deciding what if any ruling there should be.

[gordontd]

RMB1, on Oct 11 2009, 10:53 PM, said:

North is likely to lead partner's suit. If declarer plays three rounds of spades and then use ♦A as an entry to take ♣ finesse, drawing the last trump when ♣A wins, that is 12 tricks (just losing ♠Q). So I could say 4♠+2.

This line risks going off if the club finesse isn't working, so would be unlikely to be taken unless a diamond had been returned after North won the ♠Q. Otherwise it would be much better just to give up a club and keep the ♦A intact.

Even if they do return a diamond after the ♠Q one might hold up the first round of diamonds before taking the club finesse. So 11 tricks seems much more likely to me than any other number, since it's teams.

[gordontd]

peachy, on Oct 12 2009, 01:44 AM, said:

In many locations, Pass over the 3S is supposed to be slow (about ten seconds) whether the Stop card was used or not. If there is no mandated pause, it is normal IMO to be a little slower than regular tempo, whatever that is.
But maybe there was pause beyond some 10 sec, or maybe you don't have stop-card in use. I'd like to know, before deciding what if any ruling there should be.

The OP is in the EBU where stop card regulations are in force, so when we are told the 3♠ bid was slow we can assume it was over and above the required pause.

[RMB1]

Cyberyeti, on Oct 12 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

How are fractional Imps dealt with for conversion to VPs ? We were never going to get all of 480, but is the 5♦ bid that never was authorised info to us ? ...

In the EBU, fractional IMPs are rounded to the nearest IMP after the 12C1c weighting is applied (exact halves away from zero?). So there are no fractional IMPs by the time we come to convert to VPs. (Althought we do use 0.5VP for penalties.)

5♦ is not "authorised" to the imagined declarer in 4♠. 5♦ can not have happened if declarer is playing in 4♠.

Robin

P.S. I could point to "... had the irregularity not occured ..." in 12C1e(i) but that would open up a can of worms (WBF LC minutes, 2009)

[bluejak]

Quote

I could point to "... had the irregularity not occurred ..." in 12C1e(i) but that would open up a can of worms (WBF LC minutes, 2009)

You could, of course, but I do not see the relevance to this case which happened in England.

Quote

If there is no mandated pause, it is normal IMO to be a little slower than regular tempo, whatever that is.

Whether Stop card regulations are a good idea or not, what you say here is definitely not the case which creates problems. When there are no Stop card regulations, some players some times will pass like a flash. With no rules suggestion they should slow down, why should they?

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, Australia is the only place I know with no Stop card regulations at all.

[Vampyr]

bluejak, on Oct 12 2009, 01:40 PM, said:

Australia is the only place I know with no Stop card regulations at all.

I do not know the regulations in force in Monaco, but I played there this past weekend and not a single player hesitated even though I eventually took to holding the Stop card in mid-air practically in front of their face.

[peachy]

bluejak, on Oct 12 2009, 07:40 AM, said:

Quote

If there is no mandated pause, it is normal IMO to be a little slower than regular tempo, whatever that is.

Whether Stop card regulations are a good idea or not, what you say here is definitely not the case which creates problems. When there are no Stop card regulations, some players some times will pass like a flash. With no rules suggestion they should slow down, why should they?

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, Australia is the only place I know with no Stop card regulations at all.

What I was trying to say is that in an auction quickly elevated to a level where if the player wants to take action, it is on the 4- level, then it is normal (or: not unusual) that the tempo might be slower than usual. However, if the tempo is lightning fast in that situation, it would be unusual. I assume the person over the 3S call needs to figure what 3S is before venturing action on the 4-level.