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Offender side pass all the way but the lead was done with cards from the wrong board. the lead is the J♥
case 1- declarer say "something is wrong there is 2 H jack"
case 2- the partner of offender say "i have the H J".
case 3- the offender noticed that he has the wrong cards before dummy hit the table
case 4 -- the offender realize his mistake after the dummy is put down.
What your rulings ?
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Lead without the good hand. offender never bid.
#1
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Posted 2009-September-30, 16:57
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
#2
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Posted 2009-September-30, 21:20
benlessard, on Sep 30 2009, 05:57 PM, said:
case 1- declarer say "something is wrong there is 2 H jack"
The ♥J that has been lead has no official status as it is not a card from the actual board that we are playing, so I would simply instruct the offender to put their erroneous hand (including the ♥J) back into the correct board, get their correct hand out of the current board and make an opening lead. I think information that declarer holds the real ♥J is authorised information for the defenders as declarer should not have made such a comment as it would've been much easier to point at the board and say "hey! look at this - your cards are still in the board". I would inform the partner of the offender that it is unauthorised information for him that partner passed throughout the auction looking at the wrong hand (i.e. until other evidence comes to light during the play of the hand, he needs to frame his defence based on the assumption that partner has a hand that would've passed throughout the auction).
benlessard, on Sep 30 2009, 05:57 PM, said:
case 2- the partner of offender say "i have the H J".
Similar to Case 1, the manner in which attention has been drawn to the irregularity is inappropriate. Again, I would tell the offender to get the correct hand and find a new opening lead, but now the info that the offender's partner holds the ♥J is unauthorised info for the offender but is authorised info for declarer. As with Case 1, the offender's partner must be careful not to use UI that partner passed throughout looking at the wrong cards.
benlessard, on Sep 30 2009, 05:57 PM, said:
case 3- the offender noticed that he has the wrong cards before dummy hit the table
This makes life easier, but all the same UI issues from Case 1 and Case 2 would still apply.
benlessard, on Sep 30 2009, 05:57 PM, said:
case 4 -- the offender realize his mistake after the dummy is put down.
I would instruct the offender to take great care not to take any advantage from having seen dummy in selecting their new opening lead and if they happened to find a superior lead when an inferior lead was a logical alternative, I would adjust the board to the likely outcome on the inferior lead. Of course, the same UI issues noted above would still apply.
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
#3
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Posted 2009-October-01, 02:25
there is now another forums specifically designed for this matters
#4
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Posted 2009-October-01, 12:50
There is a forum for handling leads from a hand contained in a different board?
I didn't realize we were getting so specialized.
I didn't realize we were getting so specialized.
#5
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Posted 2009-October-01, 19:40
Not quite that specialized - There are "Laws and Rulings" and "Simple Rulings" toward the bottom of the lists of forums.
John S. Nichols - Director & Webmaster
Indianapolis Bridge Center
Indianapolis Bridge Center
#6
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Posted 2009-October-23, 05:08
If you want comments from the real experts, you should post in the Simple Rulings forum.
Whilst some interesting rulings have been suggested, there is actually a law that covers the situation, 17D. Though it is in a funny place so easy to overlook. It says:
Under 17D2, it is pretty clear that things have gone far too far to rescue the board, so it is cancelled and an artificial adjusted score awarded.
Under 17D3, it is looking like the board the cards were wrongly drawn, if the offender is still to play it, will also be cancelled and an artifical adjusted score awarded.
Whilst some interesting rulings have been suggested, there is actually a law that covers the situation, 17D. Though it is in a funny place so easy to overlook. It says:
L17D said:
D. Cards from Wrong Board
1. A call is cancelled if it is made by a player on cards that he has picked
up from a wrong board.
2. After looking at the correct hand the offender calls again and the
auction continues normally from that point. If offender’s LHO has called
over the cancelled call the Director shall award artificial adjusted scores
when offender’s substituted call differs4 from his cancelled call
(offender’s LHO must repeat the previous call) or if the offender’s
partner has subsequently called over the cancelled call.
3. If the offender subsequently repeats his call on the board from which
he mistakenly drew his cards the Director may allow that board to be
played normally, but the Director shall award artificial adjusted scores
when offender’s call differs4 from his original cancelled call.
4. A procedural penalty (Law 90) may be assessed in addition to
rectifications under 2 and 3 above.
1. A call is cancelled if it is made by a player on cards that he has picked
up from a wrong board.
2. After looking at the correct hand the offender calls again and the
auction continues normally from that point. If offender’s LHO has called
over the cancelled call the Director shall award artificial adjusted scores
when offender’s substituted call differs4 from his cancelled call
(offender’s LHO must repeat the previous call) or if the offender’s
partner has subsequently called over the cancelled call.
3. If the offender subsequently repeats his call on the board from which
he mistakenly drew his cards the Director may allow that board to be
played normally, but the Director shall award artificial adjusted scores
when offender’s call differs4 from his original cancelled call.
4. A procedural penalty (Law 90) may be assessed in addition to
rectifications under 2 and 3 above.
Under 17D2, it is pretty clear that things have gone far too far to rescue the board, so it is cancelled and an artificial adjusted score awarded.
Under 17D3, it is looking like the board the cards were wrongly drawn, if the offender is still to play it, will also be cancelled and an artifical adjusted score awarded.
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