[Chris3875]

Is there a Law or Regulation covering the format of teams? For example can a N/S pair change to E/W when playing Team number 2, then swap back to N/S when they have to play Team number 3. Sometimes players think they will do better playing against a certain combination in another team. What if the N/S players in Team 1 want to play against the E/W players in Team 2, but Team 2 want to swap their players - if they are allowed to swap, which Team takes precedence?

[pran]

This is a matter of regulation, not of law.

As far as I know the "standard" for a match played over two rounds is that the home team has the privilege of seating their pairs after the visiting team has presented their lineup for the first round.

At half time (i.e. for the second round) any home team pair that is unchanged from the first round shall remain seated at the same place it was seated in the first round. After the home team pairs have been seated for the second round the visiting team must seat their pairs so that no (unchanged) pair meets the same (unchanged) pair which it met in the first round.

Special rules often apply when one, but not both teams use HUM.

Lineup in one match is (usually) never affected by lineups in previous matches.

regards Sven

[blackshoe]

pran, on Oct 10 2009, 08:40 AM, said:

This is a matter of regulation, not of law.

Not entirely. Law 5 applies.

[FrancesHinden]

To be more precise, Law5 tells us (my bolding):

Quote

The Director assigns an initial position to each contestant (individual, pair or team) at the start of a session. Unless otherwise directed, the members of each pair or team may select seats among those assigned to them by mutual agreement. Having once selected a compass direction, a player may change it within a session only upon instruction or with permission of the Director.
B. Change of Direction or Table
Players change their initial compass direction or proceed to another table in accordance with the Director’s instructions.

I disagree with Sven about the 'standard', I don't believe there is a standard at all. Even thinking just of English events, even resricting them to matches played in exactly two stanzas (a small minority) the regulations still vary between different events.

Quote

For example can a N/S pair change to E/W when playing Team number 2, then swap back to N/S when they have to play Team number 3.

This sounds as if you are thinking of Swiss or Multiple teams, where the same team plays a number of other teams all as part of the same event.

The Law above tells us that you decide which of your pairs is NS (or the TD tells you) and then they have to stay that way throughout the event unless they get permission to change. The Law doesn't get applied very often in team events, because there are often detailed regulations to cover seating rights. It is handy in pairs events - it stops a mixed-skill partnership swapping between rounds to make the stronger player dealer as often as possible.

In my experience, three things happen in practice

- Most teams just stick throughout the event, or if they do switch it's not related to who they are playing against (e.g. one pair always wants the table nearest the window)

- Some teams do swap round depending on their opponents, but their opponents don't notice

- Very rarely an impasse arises when both teams want to swap, as you put it. The procedure I've seen followed in EBU Swiss Teams events when this happens is that the TD tells both teams to submit 'line-ups' i.e. to write on a piece of paper who is going to play at each table, so it becomes random which team get their way.

[bluejak]

Chris: we do always ask people to say where they are for the opening post of a thread since so much depends on it. A good idea is to put your country in the box marked 'Description [Optional]'. For example, if you are in England/Wales, and you were playing a Swiss Teams [which is what it sounds like to me] then you are permitted to switch directions every match because each match is a session. But there are no "seating rights" so if a disagreement arises it will be dealt with in the way Frances mentions.

I seem to have read somewhere that the same applies in the ACBL for Swiss Teams.

In a Multiple Teams, a Round Robin with short matches, it will usually be impractical to change and not permitted. However, in Eire when they play such events they score after each match and it would be practical to switch: whether legal in Eire I do not know [though I could find out if you are there].

You may wonder how this agrees with Law 5: the EBU defines a Swiss match as a session for the purpose of seating.

[pran]

blackshoe, on Oct 10 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

pran, on Oct 10 2009, 08:40 AM, said:

This is a matter of regulation, not of law.

Not entirely. Law 5 applies.

I don't see any conflict between Law 5 and the procedures I described?

The Director's instructions under Law 5 are limited to specifying which team is "home" and which team is "away" (or "guest"). The home team always occupy the "NS" seats in the "open" room and the "EW" seats in the "closed" room.

The Director has (in Norway) no power to instruct which of the four seats allocated to a team shall be occupied by which player on that team during either of the two rounds.

In view of the subsequent post by Frances let me make it clear that I was only considering sessions where each team met one other team and complete their match against that team before becoming enganged in their match against another team.

Regards Sven

[pran]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 10 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

I disagree with Sven about the 'standard', I don't believe there is a standard at all. Even thinking just of English events, even resricting them to matches played in exactly two stanzas (a small minority) the regulations still vary between different events.

Very well.

I quoted from the Norwegian regulation on these matters, and if this regulation is specific for Norway rather than adopted from general "standard" principles it is the first time in my life I have encountered a Norwegian regulation on bridge matters to be such specific.

Our regulation is aimed at matches for teams of four where a "home" and an "away" team meet for a match played over two rounds, comparing intermediate results and changing opponents at half time.

Regards Sven

[skjaeran]

Sven doesn't tell the whole story about the Norgegian regulations.

In Swiss teams or RR teams with short matches, each match is considered a session. In each match the home team has seating rights . Thus it's totally proper for a pair to switch directions from round to round. Most teams play with one pair always in the open room and the other in the closed.

Movements like Mitchell aren't used much here.

[Chris3875]

Thanks everyone - I am from Australia and I was talking about Club events both Swiss Teams and Round Robin Teams. I think Law 5 covers the situation very well.

[bluejak]

pran, on Oct 10 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

I quoted from the Norwegian regulation on these matters, and if this regulation is specific for Norway rather than adopted from general "standard" principles it is the first time in my life I have encountered a Norwegian regulation on bridge matters to be such specific.

Our regulation is aimed at matches for teams of four where a "home" and an "away" team meet for a match played over two rounds, comparing intermediate results and changing opponents at half time.

Yes, but ...

This is fine for one specific type of event. What about every other event?

[pran]

bluejak, on Oct 10 2009, 08:19 PM, said:

pran, on Oct 10 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

I quoted from the Norwegian regulation on these matters, and if this regulation is specific for Norway rather than adopted from general "standard" principles it is the first time in my life I have encountered a Norwegian regulation on bridge matters to be such specific.

Our regulation is aimed at matches for teams of four where a "home" and an "away" team meet for a match played over two rounds, comparing intermediate results and changing opponents at half time.

Yes, but ...

This is fine for one specific type of event. What about every other event?

Well, as Harald pointed out I didn't include addressing single round matches where the home team still has the privilege of choosing seats after the guests have chosen theirs.

This (or other types of matches for teams of four) is not specifically addressed in the Norwegian regulation, but I have never seen any problem applying the specified principles analogically to other types of matches for teams.

When multiple matches are played within a single convention of players the schedules will have to be some variation of either Mitchell or Howell movements, often with the open and closed room rounds of the match being played in different rounds of the movement. Obviously this will call for special restrictions on the seating of the players. Consequently the progression of players will have to follow the rules for such movements.

Does anywhere in the world a regulation exist that prevents the (often up to six) players nominated on a team from forming new pair combinations or inserting a new pair in a new round when the open and closed room rounds of a match are played simultaneously?

If, as I expect, no such regulation exists for the event then the players cannot be legally restricted in selecting their seats other than by maintaining for instance that the home team (still) has the privilege the first or only time two teams meet and that no two opposing pairs shall meet again in a possible second round of the same match.

So frankly I cannot see any reason for this objection?

Sven

[peachy]

bluejak, on Oct 10 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

Chris: we do always ask people to say where they are for the opening post of a thread since so much depends on it.  A good idea is to put your country in the box marked 'Description [Optional]'. For example, if you are in England/Wales, and you were playing a Swiss Teams [which is what it sounds like to me] then you are permitted to switch directions every match because each match is a session.  But there are no "seating rights" so if a disagreement arises it will be dealt with in the way Frances mentions.

I seem to have read somewhere that the same applies in the ACBL for Swiss Teams.

The General Conditions of Contest for in ACBL for Swiss Teams says how a disagreement about seats is dealt with:

http://www.acbl.org/...of-Contest.html
"There are no seating rights. If the captains involved cannot resolve a disagreement, there shall be a coin-flip. The team losing the coin flip will seat its pairs first. The team winning the coin flip will then seat its pairs."

I know the OP was not from ACBL, this is just FYI in response to David.