[plaur]

Scoring: IMP

1♣ 1♠
1NT ?

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12 board teammatch, none vul. How do you evaluate this hand?
You can bid 2♦ as game force or 2♣-2♦-2♠ to show invite with 5 spades

[woefuwabit]

Looks like a clear 2♦ to me

[gwnn]

Clear game force.

[655321]

Yes, no point in looking for reasons to stay out of game. Sure, game might not make, but you have an opening hand and some shape as well, why wouldn't you force to game when partner has opened?

[P_Marlowe]

Invite, and I would prefer 3C, ... as long as it is an invite,
since this would show the club fit as well, opener can still
bid 3S, if he accepts the invite.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Phil]

Hands like this are a drawback to xy systems. You'd probably like to GF this if you knew partner had a spade fit. Opposite a lot of crappy minimums, game is pretty good, but only if we have a fit.

Opposite a non-fitting minimum, game is a dog, but the ♠9 gives us some hope.

I would 2♦.

[plaur]

655321, on Oct 5 2009, 06:03 AM, said:

Yes, no point in looking for reasons to stay out of game.  Sure, game might not make, but you have an opening hand and some shape as well, why wouldn't you force to game when partner has opened?

Thanks for answers all! Clear majority for game force. I did invite and now I am trying to learn why my hand evaluating is wrong and find out how I can improve.
The actual hand was even better! I remembered the hand wrong.

Scoring: IMP

1♣ 1♠
1NT ?

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My thoughts: If we have a 5-3 spade fit I want to be in game. If partner accepts an invitation I also want to be in game. I do want to give partner a chance to play a club partial if he has a crappy 11 or 12.
I understand that in a teams game: Do not look for reasons to stay out of game; look for reasons to bid game. This hand has 12 HCP, 55 and a club fit and STILL I can not get rid of the feeling its only worth an invite
The question I ask myself is: How often do game make on the hands that partner rejects the invite with? If game is worse than 50%(for a non-vul game) on average then an invite is right. Is that correct?

[woefuwabit]

It depends if a declined invitation stops at 2♠ or 2NT/3♠. If it stops at 2♠, then 4♠ -1 will be -5 IMPs (-6 if vuln) to you and 4♠ = will be +6 (+10 if vuln), so you probably need only 45.45% chance (37.5% if vuln) of making the game.

It gets slightly more complicated if invitation stops at 2NT or 3♠ because of the possibility that 2NT/3♠ is -1, so 3NT/4♠-2 will lose only 2 IMPs. This reduces the chance needed of making the game to make bidding it worthwhile.

[gwnn]

Phil, on Oct 5 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

Hands like this are a drawback to xy systems. You'd probably like to GF this if you knew partner had a spade fit. Opposite a lot of crappy minimums, game is pretty good, but only if we have a fit.

Opposite a non-fitting minimum, game is a dog, but the ♠9 gives us some hope.

I would 2♦.

yes with one of my partners we use

2♣=invite, doesn't force 2♦
2♦=gf

and then maybe it makes sense to bid 2♣ planning to bid 2♠ over 2♦ or 2♥ but bid 4♠ over 2♠ but I think I still just bid 2♦.

[Codo]

plaur, on Oct 6 2009, 02:37 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♣ 1♠
1NT ?

---

I understand that in a teams game: Do not look for reasons to stay out of game; look for reasons to bid game. This hand has 12 HCP, 55 and a club fit and STILL I can not get rid of the feeling its only worth an invite
The question I ask myself is: How often do game make on the hands that partner rejects the invite with? If game is worse than 50%(for a non-vul game) on average then an invite is right. Is that correct?

If you are brave and bid so many game that you make just 1/3 of them, the IMP-scale still is in your favour.

(In reality, it is not as easy as this, it depends on vul., it does not count multiple downs in doubled contracts etc, but it is close to reality.)

So the normal evaluation methods do cater to find these thin games.

For the evaluation of this hand: If you have a spade fit, this is a no brainer, you must be in game. I would rate the prospects of making for 75 % (Without a simulation).
Without a fit the hand is obviously worse. But there are still many hands, where 3 NT and/or 5 club or even 4 Spade opposite Ax or even Jx in spades make. I would rate the chance with about 45 %.

So even if you would know that you have no fit, you should search the right game.