[ONEferBRID]

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777. Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

K x x
A
J T 9 x
Q J T x x

♠AQ
♥KQ732
♦AKQ54
♣8

1C - 1H
1NT - 2D!
3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )
4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )
5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

[MattieShoe]

I don't think pass is so terrible, but 11 HCP, some shape, JT9 sequence, QJT sequence... I thought it was worth squeaking :-)

[mike777]

ONEferBRID, on Oct 2 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777.  Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

K x x
A
J T 9 x
Q J T x x

♠AQ
♥KQ732
♦AKQ54
♣8

1C - 1H
1NT - 2D!
3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )
4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )
5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

Yes, we disagree, for me invite hands go through 2c or 2nt. All jumps 3d or higher are natural and game force. Weak hands with long clubs bid 3c and weak hands with d bid 2c which forces 2d. Weak hands with majors simply rebid major or pass.


btw with your example...no way I bid 3d over 2d.

[andy_h]

ONEferBRID, on Oct 3 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777. Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

K x x
A
J T 9 x
Q J T x x

♠AQ
♥KQ732
♦AKQ54
♣8

1C - 1H
1NT - 2D!
3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )
4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )
5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

uhh...with 5♥'s and an invitational hand what do you do? Jump to 3♥ and play in a potential 5-2 fit (5-1 here) or bid 2♦ and have opener bid 3♦ with this and you're back with the same problem.

[gwnn]

jdonn, on Oct 2 2009, 10:36 PM, said:

gwnn, on Oct 2 2009, 05:10 PM, said:

maggieb, on Oct 2 2009, 02:38 PM, said:

On this particular hand you have the stiff ace of hearts so anything but opening 1C and rebidding 1NT strikes me as way off.

Is pass really so terrible?

Maybe not but the problem still remains. Pretend the spades are Axx.

Sure I agree that if I open, I'll follow 1♣..1NT, but from her post it looked like she dismissed pass too. Of course, except Gnome and mike777 nobody even mentioned the possibility of passing, but she sort of mentioned it in a negative way.

[kenberg]

To open 1C and rebid 2C, I don't wait for a six card suit but I like to have something like KQJxx or at least KQTxx. I don't much care for the 1D followed by 2C approach. I think it makes life too difficult for partner.

So I either pass this or open 1C and rebid 1NT over 1H. Either might work, either might go badly. To me, it's a close call. I think I vote for pass, mostly because if it goes badly (and maybe if it goes well) partner may become distrustful of my future openings. It is not so much a matter of him punishing me, but rather that we all have a "general feeling" of what to expect from partner's openings and opening this will have an effect.

Another argument for passing is that it is not at all clear that your side will be declaring, and if it is they who declare, your opening may be a greater help to the opponent's than to your side. It may not be obvious when the hand is over that it was your opening that led to a successful contract by the opponents, but it may still be the case.

What to do with hands like this seems to be an unending issue. The Middle East will be a peaceful area of the world before anyone comes to a solid conclusion here.

[ONEferBRID]

andy_h, on Oct 3 2009, 04:04 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Oct 3 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777.  Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

K x x
A
J T 9 x
Q J T x x

♠AQ
♥KQ732
♦AKQ54
♣8

1C - 1H
1NT - 2D!
3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )
4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )
5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

uhh...with 5♥'s and an invitational hand what do you do? Jump to 3♥ and play in a potential 5-2 fit (5-1 here) or bid 2♦ and have opener bid 3♦ with this and you're back with the same problem.

I'm not saying that NMF means a GF.
Jump-invites will normally mean extra length.... 3H-jump in this auction would mean 6+ cards.
With a invite hand ( say 11 hcp ) and only 5 cds Hts, you would still go thru NMF hoping to hear a 3H-jump by Opener showing a max ( 14 hcp w/3 ) .
If partner shows a minimum rebid you will play in part score.

[jdonn]

ONEferBRID, on Oct 3 2009, 08:40 AM, said:

andy_h, on Oct 3 2009, 04:04 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Oct 3 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777.   Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

K x x
A
J T 9 x
Q J T x x

♠AQ
♥KQ732
♦AKQ54
♣8

1C - 1H
1NT - 2D!
3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )
4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )
5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

uhh...with 5♥'s and an invitational hand what do you do? Jump to 3♥ and play in a potential 5-2 fit (5-1 here) or bid 2♦ and have opener bid 3♦ with this and you're back with the same problem.

I'm not saying that NMF means a GF.
Jump-invites will normally mean extra length.... 3H-jump in this auction would mean 6+ cards.
With a invite hand ( say 11 hcp ) and only 5 cds Hts, you would still go thru NMF hoping to hear a 3H-jump by Opener showing a max ( 14 hcp w/3 ) .
If partner shows a minimum rebid you will play in part score.

I think gwnn is saying if you can bid nmf on an invitational hand with 5 hearts, and opener can respond 3♦ on a 3145 11 count, imagine what contract you are going to reach if those are the two hands!!!

[ONEferBRID]

jdonn, on Oct 3 2009, 10:16 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Oct 3 2009, 08:40 AM, said:

andy_h, on Oct 3 2009, 04:04 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Oct 3 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777.   Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

K x x
A
J T 9 x
Q J T x x

♠AQ
♥KQ732
♦AKQ54
♣8

1C - 1H
1NT - 2D!
3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )
4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )
5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

uhh...with 5♥'s and an invitational hand what do you do? Jump to 3♥ and play in a potential 5-2 fit (5-1 here) or bid 2♦ and have opener bid 3♦ with this and you're back with the same problem.

I'm not saying that NMF means a GF.
Jump-invites will normally mean extra length.... 3H-jump in this auction would mean 6+ cards.
With a invite hand ( say 11 hcp ) and only 5 cds Hts, you would still go thru NMF hoping to hear a 3H-jump by Opener showing a max ( 14 hcp w/3 ) .
If partner shows a minimum rebid you will play in part score.

I think gwnn is saying if you can bid nmf on an invitational hand with 5 hearts, and opener can respond 3♦ on a 3145 11 count, imagine what contract you are going to reach if those are the two hands!!!

After some thought, I tend to agree with you and Andy.
With the questionable opening aside, I too now think it is better for Opener NOT to go to the 3-level after the NMF-ask. Top reply, if possible, should be 2NT if no 3 card support for Responder's Major.

The given deal will still allow Responder to make a GF rebid:

1C - 1H
1NT - 2D!
2NT - 3D ( now establishes a GF, and shifts the focus from Hts to Diam. )

[mike777]

YOu may prefer some version where:
2d=100% game force checkback.
2c= non game force checkback.

Granted you can never play 2clubs.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Assuming SAYC or 2/1, is there a "correct" way of opening this hand?

Yes, the green card.