[LoneMonad]

! am considering a weak NT in a 2/1 context
1NT = 10-12
1♣ &rebid 1NT = 13-14
1♦ & rebid 1NT - 15-17

¿anyone have resources for complete structure?

[Quantumcat]

I play something similar with some partners, here it is:

non vul in first and second seat

- 1NT 10-12
- 1C then 1NT = 13-16
- 1D then 1NT = 17-19

vul or 3rd seat

- 1NT = 15-17
- 1C then 1NT = 12-14
- 1D then 1NT = 18-19

4th seat

- 1NT = 15-17
- 1C then 1NT = 12-14
- 1D = 5 diamonds
- 2D = 18-19 bal (responses as to 2NT opening, and 2H, 2S and 2NT to play)

1 minor then 3 minor is 16-18 single suited,
1 minor then 2NT is 19-20 single suited OR 19-20+ 4 card raise of partner's response after which partner can reject with a 3 count (this along with 18 counts only bidding to 1NT allows you to respond on three counts with majors)

It is better to keep 1NT 10-12 to 1/2 seat because then there is more ambiguity for the opponents. If you do it when vul or in 3rd seat (when it is known your partner has less than ten points) you are guaranteed to get doubled no matter what the opponents hold.

Also a benefit to playing 1C/1D then 1NT as specific balanced ranges means that if you play transfers over 1C, they come up twice as often (when diamonds are your better minor as well as when clubs are)

[LoneMonad]

Quantumcat, on Sep 28 2009, 06:09 PM, said:

if you play transfers over 1C

! have heard a Little about these transfers
! do transfers over a precision ♣ but have not tried them over a standard or 2/1 ♣
can u tell me more
or point me to a good reference

[jdonn]

LoneMonad, on Sep 29 2009, 10:25 AM, said:

Quantumcat, on Sep 28 2009, 06:09 PM, said:

if you play transfers over 1C

! have heard a Little about these transfers
! do transfers over a precision ♣ but have not tried them over a standard or 2/1 ♣
can u tell me more
or point me to a good reference

Here is what I played with jlall. I'm not sure this is the best forum for this, but I'll offer it since you asked and since what I'm going to describe is about as simple as anything for transfers after 1♣.

1♣ - 1♦: Transfer to hearts
1♣ - 1♥: Transfer to spades

Opener always accepted the transfer with 3 card support, unless he was game forcing (he accepted it on 18-19 balanced.) There are other ways to do that which greatly affect the followups. For example it's not uncommon for people to play opener always accepts the transfer on a balanced minimum, but this is what we liked and played. Also we tended to "fib" with (43)33 and 4 card support and just show 3 card support (this was included in our alert so it wasn't really a fib.)

The great benefit to opener accepting the transfer with 3 card support is that when opener does anything but accept the transfer you are WAY ahead of the field, knowing opener has 0-2 of your suit. You can pass instead of risking looking for a fit, opener can freely make later preferences on doubletons, etc.

Responder could pass which showed a very bad hand, raise to 2 of his suit which showed about 6-8 with 5+ in the suit, or do some other things which were generally natural. However his most common option on both weak and strong hands was to bid the next step as an asking bid about opener's hand. Opener's bids over that were essentially natural, to the extent they could be.

1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠: Asking bid
1NT: 12-14 balanced
2♣: 6 clubs
2♦: 1345 minimum
2♥: 4315 minimum

1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 1NT: Asking bid
2♣: 6 clubs
2♦: 3145 minimum
2♥: 3415 minimum
2♠: balanced minimum

These aren't the best possible rebids but they worked fine and were simple (actually I hope I'm not remembering wrong, but whatever.) One special auction was 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1NT which showed 6-9 with 4-4 in the majors, not forcing. Without 4 spades responder would bid the 1♠ relay.

Our other transfer responses to 1♣ were:
1♠: Weak or invitational, balanced or diamonds
1NT: Weak or game forcing, clubs
2♣: Game forcing, diamonds
2♦: Invitational, clubs

Obviously these can be rearranged in any number of ways. Our 1NT, 2♣, and 2♦ bids worked great and all had nifty asking bids over them. The 1♠ bid was overloaded compared to what most people play but we accepted it to make the other bids work well. The one terrible problem for opener was 4414 or 4405 with about 16 after the 1♠ response, he was pretty stuck. The other major weakness in this structure overall was 1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♠ showing a balanced minimum, you might reach a 4-3 spade fit on two balanced hands. Those two auctions were by far the biggest problems, but as far as I can remember any other auction worked well.

I hope that is what you were looking for.

[LoneMonad]

thanx

can you point me to a source (book, article…

[jdonn]

Sorry, that was the article lol.

[1eyedjack]

LoneMonad - google Transfer Walsh and you will find a number of structures. Possibly a dangerous toy in BIL hands - as suggested by the forum location.

[fromageGB]

1eyedjack, on Sep 29 2009, 05:50 PM, said:

LoneMonad - google Transfer Walsh and you will find a number of structures.  Possibly a dangerous toy in BIL hands - as suggested by the forum location.

Au contraire. Transfer Walsh can be played very simply, and BI's would benefit by doing so. A very simple way is to say opener completes the major "transfer" if he has exactly 3 cards, jump supports with 4, or bids what he would have done anyway if 0-2. No need for fancy follow-ons, natural will do.

What you do have to do, in a natural structure, is to decide what the 1♣ 1♠ bid means, and depending on that, what 1♣ 1NT means. I think 1♠ as a transfer to NT is very useful (weak or strong, may have other later bids after the transfer) but even if you only use it with NT type hands it right-sides a NT contract.

If 1NT is then a "spare" reply to a 1♣ you can then use it to show both majors, or to show the diamonds that transfer Walsh prevented you from doing in the first place. You choose.

[Quantumcat]

Here is what we do, it fits perfectly in with our openings.

1♦ = hearts
1♥ = spades
1♠ = no major or 16+ bal
1NT = GF clubs
2♣ = GF diamonds
2♦ = 4 diamonds 5 hearts less than invite
2♥ = 4 diamonds 5 spades less than invite
2♠ = 4+/4+ minors invite
2NT = (12)13-15 bal
3♣ = 4+/4+ minors 5-8 HCP

Opener completes major suit transfer with 3 cards no matter what his HCP or shape, bids 2-major with 4-card support AND upper half of balanced range (i.e. 15-16 if bal range is 13-16) 3-major is 16-18 with four cards. Bidding anything else denies three card support.

Then responder's second bid is a transfer.

1♠, 1NT natural

2♣ = signoff in diamonds or all invites

(Every other bid is signoff or gameforce: if you have five of your major you show that before bidding other suits or else you show only four)

2♦ = hearts
2♥ = spades
2♠ = 2NT 15-16 not really slam interest
2NT = clubs
3♣ = diamonds
3♥/♠ to play (if that was the bid major)
3♥/♠ transfer to 3NT (non-bid major)

If 1♠ was replied and opener bid 1NT:

2♣ = invite with one minor or 16+ five diamonds
->after opener bids 2♦: 2♥/♠ cues for diamonds, 2NT = generally 16+ five diamonds, 3♣/♦ invite with five.
2♦ = 16+ five hearts
2♥ = 16+ five spades
2♠ = 16+ no five card suit you want to mention
->then after opener bids 2NT, you can show your four card suits
2NT = 16+ five clubs

[1eyedjack]

fromageGB, on Sep 29 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Sep 29 2009, 05:50 PM, said:

LoneMonad - google Transfer Walsh and you will find a number of structures.  Possibly a dangerous toy in BIL hands - as suggested by the forum location.

Au contraire. Transfer Walsh can be played very simply, and BI's would benefit by doing so.

Perhaps. I don't insist on it.

If you are going to play it you also need to consider your follow-ups in contested auctions, mind.

[woefuwabit]

LoneMonad, on Sep 29 2009, 06:15 AM, said:

! am considering a weak NT in a 2/1 context
1NT = 10-12
1♣ &rebid 1NT = 13-14
1♦ & rebid 1NT - 15-17

¿anyone have resources for complete structure?

You could open 1m naturally and play a wide range 1NT rebid of 13-17, together with a checkback system that handles it, e.g. this modification of Crowhurst + Two-way checkback

1♣/1♦ - 1♥/1♠ - 1NT
2♣ = 8-11, artificial checkback
2♦ = artificial game force
2♥/2♠ = weak
2[NT] = weak, 4M + 6om or 4-5m, transfer to 3♣ P/C to 3♦
3♣/3♦ = ...(your choice)

After 2♣:
2♦ = All minimum 13 to bad 14s
2♥ / 2♠ / 2NT = good 14 to bad 16
3x = good 16 to 17

[rd6789]

The other thing I would spend some time on is what to do when opps X (which they will tend to do quite often in my experience )

[Cyberyeti]

woefuwabit, on Sep 30 2009, 05:44 AM, said:

LoneMonad, on Sep 29 2009, 06:15 AM, said:

! am considering a weak NT in a 2/1 context
1NT = 10-12
1♣ &rebid 1NT = 13-14
1♦ & rebid 1NT - 15-17

¿anyone have resources for complete structure?

You could open 1m naturally and play a wide range 1NT rebid of 13-17, together with a checkback system that handles it, e.g. this modification of Crowhurst + Two-way checkback

1♣/1♦ - 1♥/1♠ - 1NT
2♣ = 8-11, artificial checkback
2♦ = artificial game force
2♥/2♠ = weak
2[NT] = weak, 4M + 6om or 4-5m, transfer to 3♣ P/C to 3♦
3♣/3♦ = ...(your choice)

After 2♣:
2♦ = All minimum 13 to bad 14s
2♥ / 2♠ / 2NT = good 14 to bad 16
3x = good 16 to 17

Or you could simply play a 10-15 or 11-15/16 no trump which we did in 1st/2nd switching to 14-19 3rd/4th. Once you've learned the system to go with this, it has an even bigger advantage in the 15-20 1N overcall.

We home hashed some responses with 4 card invitational or better red suit transfers and 2♣ as the bucket bid.

This worked well particularly at pairs when you open a 10-15 and partner decks a 9 count and they don't know whether they're trying to beat this or prevent the second overtrick. It also won us some teams matches as it can be difficult to deal with.

Over intervention need to play X as one lebensohl type bid and either transfers or 2N as another to deal with different hand ranges.

I really enjoyed that system and got good results with it, but the partner I played it with moved away and my new partner and I never went through all the complicated ramifications.

[Quantumcat]

rd6789, on Sep 30 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

The other thing I would spend some time on is what to do when opps X (which they will tend to do quite often in my experience )

You can play transfers over every double that is not specifically penalising (you want to keep redouble for either to play or to run). The transfers go up to one less than raise of partner, which is a good raise, while natural raise is a worse raise. This puts any doubler on lead maybe without knowing his partner's suit, and you can also run to bad suits without sounding good and forcing.

You can also play transfers over interference of a 1-suit opening. Then you can play the same system as over a 1C opening even if 1C wasn't opened, if you are still at the one-level when it gets back to responder. Also you can play in your long suit when you don't have a good hand without sounding good and forcing (just pass opener's acceptance of your transfer - he has to do something else than just bid your transfer if he can make game opposite a very weak hand with a six card suit).

[rd6789]

What I was meaning was to consider what to do if they X a mini NT (i.e. a 10-12 range NT) for penalties.

The two most popular methods seem to be

1)

- XX any one-suiter, opener bids 2♣ and you pass or correct
- 2♣,♦,♥ show that suit and one higher, typically 4-4, can be 4333 if you are stuck

2)

- XX any one-suiter, opener bids 2♣ and you pass or correct
- 2♣,♦,♥ show that suit and the suit above 4-4
- pass forces a XX and now you pass to play or 2♣ = ♣ & ♥, 2♦ = ♦ & ♠ - i/e/ the non-touchign 2-suiters

option 2 means you can't play in 1NTX, only 1NTXX - puts them on the spot...

[Quantumcat]

Oh, I see. Here is our method:

XX = clubs or two suits not clubs
2♣ = clubs and another
2♦/♥/♠ to play
pass = happy or nowhere to run (opener XXs with five card suit)

[woefuwabit]

IMO for any structure over 1NT X, it is necessary to use the XX bid as a serious bid looking for blood. This allows opener to double for penalty if your LHO runs into a suit held by the opener. If you pass, waiting for opener to Redouble for you to pass, it is possible LHO runs and opener passes (because you may be looking to run too) it round to you to make a guess with a doubleton.

So this is the simple structure I play:
After 1NT - (X):
XX = For blood
2♣/2♦/2♥/2♠ = To play
Pass = Forces XX from opener -> Bid lower of 2 4-4 suits

[fromageGB]

woefuwabit, on Sep 30 2009, 11:44 AM, said:

You could open 1m naturally and play a wide range 1NT rebid of 13-17, together with a checkback system that handles it, e.g. this modification of Crowhurst + Two-way checkback

1♣/1♦ - 1♥/1♠ - 1NT
2♣ = 8-11, artificial checkback

This is getting away a bit from the original question, but if you choose to play a wide ranging NT rebid ( I used to play one but no longer) you have to take the consequences on the chin. 1NT rebid on 13, checkback on 8, no fit, and you are one of the few playing 2NT on a 21 count, and of course going one off.