[DWM]

Playing Promisory Stayman and 1NT-2NT as an invite without a 4cM what should the following bids show

1NT - 2♣
2♥ - 2♠

1NT - 2♣
2♥ - 2NT

[P_Marlowe]

#2 Inv. strength, denies 4 hearts, showes 4 spades.
This followes from the fact, that you play a direct 2NT
as showing an invite without a 4 card major, if you go
via Stayman to 2NT this means, you have a 4 card major
#1 forcing raise for hearts, from #2 followes that 2S is basically
a free bid, you dont need 2S to show 4 spades, but you need
a bid which sets trumps in a forcing manner to ease slam
exploration.
This assumes, that you play transfer as well, if you dont play
transfer, than 2S showes an invitational strength with
5 spades.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[MattieShoe]

Are you playing transfers as well? May change the bidding sequences for certain shapes of hands...

Without transfers:
1. 8-9 points, 5 spades. Still looking for a suit fit.

2. 8-9 points, 4 spades. Partner wouldn't have used stayman without a 4 card major, and he just denied hearts, so it must be spades. 2NT is invitation to game in 3NT or 4♠ with more than a minimum 1NT opener.

With transfers:
1. With transfers, partner could have bid 2♥ eliciting 2♠ then bid 2NT if he wanted to show 5 spades and 8-9 points (or 3NT to show 10-15). So this must mean something different. I've never had a partner bid that, so I don't know. Guess Marlowe is right, but I wouldn't know what to make of 2♠ response there

2. 8-9 points, 4 spades. Invitation to 3NT or 4♠ with more than minimum 1NT opener

[helene_t]

Even with transfers, (1) is still useful as an invite with 5 spades so you can play in 2♠ in the 5-2 fit rather than 2NT if opener does not accept the invite.

[MattieShoe]

helene_t, on Sep 27 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

Even with transfers, (1) is still useful as an invite with 5 spades so you can play in 2♠ in the 5-2 fit rather than 2NT if opener does not accept the invite.

I've noticed people not completing transfers on BBO fairly often... I've always thought NT declarer is supposed to complete the transfer even with a doubleton. Is this some extension to the convention I'm not aware of?

Say 2 HCP, 7 card spade suit
1N - 2♥
2N -

1N - 2♥
2♠ - AP

Assuming people play transfers like I think they should, you could somply bid 2♥ 2♠ AP if you prefer a 5-2 fit to NT...

[helene_t]

No-no, opener must complete the transfer unless he has a maximum and 4-card support. OK, some might break the transfer with a minimum with 4-card support, or with a maximum with 3-card support (I would say that's a bad idea but to each his own).

If someone breaks the transfer with a doubleton support, he is probably not playing transfers.

[ONEferBRID]

An expert shared this with me:

There are many ways to play 5/4 in majors - here is his favored method:

Weak
5s/4h: Use Garbage Stayman*
4s/5h: Transfer to hearts, forget about spades

Invitational
5s/4h: 1N 2C 2D 2S
4s/5h: 1N 2D 2H 2S

Forcing Use Smolen
5s/4h: 1N 2C 2D 3H
4s/5h: 1N 2C 2D 3S

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*Garbage Stayman:
1N 2C 2D 2H shows a weak hand with 4+/4+ in majors. Opener passes
or "corrects to 2S" with the "same length or longer Spades"

[Cyberyeti]

1N-2♣-2♥-2♠

My partner and I use this as slam invitational and asking for a minor suit, it's actually the one sequence where we may not have a 4 card major in otherwise promissory stayman with 4-4 in the minors, but will usually be 4 spades and a 4 card minor. Allows you to bid those hands where you have 11 tricks in notrumps but the extra one in the 4-4 minor fit.

[MattieShoe]

ONEferBRID, on Sep 28 2009, 05:38 AM, said:

An expert shared this with me:

There are many ways to play 5/4 in majors - here is his favored method:

Weak
5s/4h: Use Garbage Stayman*
4s/5h: Transfer to hearts, forget about spades

Invitational
5s/4h: 1N 2C 2D 2S
4s/5h: 1N 2D 2H 2S

Forcing  Use Smolen
5s/4h: 1N 2C 2D 3H
4s/5h: 1N 2C 2D 3S

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*Garbage Stayman:
1N 2C 2D 2H shows a weak hand with 4+/4+ in majors. Opener passes
  or "corrects to 2S" with the "same length or longer Spades"

In case some beginners aren't aware, here's the standard SAYC/Stayman+Jacoby transfer way

5-4 in majors:
0-7 points: transfer to longer major, pass (unless weird like 4450, then can use Stayman and pass out a 2♦ bust response relatively safely)
8-9 points: Stayman 2♣. Bid 2♥/♠ (the longer one) over 2♦, or invite/bid game with fit.
10-15 points: Stayman 2♣. Bid 3♥/♠ (the longer one) 2♦, or invite/bid game with fit

5-5 or 6-5 in majors:
0-7 points: transfer to stronger major, pass
8-9 points: 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ (non-forcing)
10-15 points: 2♥ 2♠ 3♥ (game force)

5M-4m:
0-7 points: transfer to major, pass (or pass out 1NT if you feel that's best)
8-9 points: transfer to major, then bid 2NT.
10-15 points: transfer to major, bid 3m (game forcing)

Incidentally, is there a "standard" meaning of 3♥ or 3♠ if using Stayman+Jacoby? As far as I can tell, they're undefined. If there isn't a standard meaning, what do most players use those bids to indicate?