[kgr]

Scoring: IMP

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Partner opened 1♠. You play constructive raises (similar as in 2/1) and 2♣ is a limit raise with a 3c support.
Do you consider this a constructive 2 raise or a limit raise?

[xcurt]

I don't see the point in playing two kinds of raises less than limit strength and then also making aggressive limit raises. So I'll CR and it's OK to have a max from time to time.

This also lets partner make game tries showing something. Facing diamond shortness, for example, is bad. Heart shortness might not be so bad though.

This will also keep us out of thin slams.

Also, at IMPs the vulnerability really does matter, please provide it.

[kgr]

xcurt, on Sep 24 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

Also, at IMPs the vulnerability really does matter, please provide it.

Sorry, I don't remember the vuln.

[kenrexford]

If 2♣ shows a limit raise, this is a limit raise. Presumably you don't have any "mini-splinter" option any other way, so this must be it.

[Jlall]

Agree with Ken as always

[pooltuna]

kgr, on Sep 24 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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Partner opened 1♠. You play constructive raises (similar as in 2/1) and 2♣ is a limit raise with a 3c support.
Do you consider this a constructive 2 raise or a limit raise?

3 card limit raise

[pooltuna]

xcurt, on Sep 24 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

I don't see the point in playing two kinds of raises less than limit strength and then also making aggressive limit raises.  So I'll CR and it's OK to have a max from time to time.

This also lets partner make game tries showing something.  Facing diamond shortness, for example, is bad.  Heart shortness might not be so bad though.

This will also keep us out of thin slams.

Also, at IMPs the vulnerability really does matter, please provide it.

It would only be a constructive raise if you had a doubleton♣

[neilkaz]

kenrexford, on Sep 24 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

If 2♣ shows a limit raise, this is a limit raise. Presumably you don't have any "mini-splinter" option any other way, so this must be it.

Yes this looks like a time to use your gadget to show a 3 card limit raise and if PD opened a real dog he just bids 2♠ and you play it there (assuming no comp).

Without that gadget I'd consider the hand to be at the very top of the constructive raise range and would lust bid 2♠.

A question on your gadget... what do you bid when you have real ♣ or does rebidding 3♣ show the 2/1 GF hand with real ♣?

A question for all... why not play 2♣ as reverse drury in all seats. When unpassed it can be either a limit raise, or limit raise+ if you prefer and when unpassed holding the 2/1 GF ♣ hand you rebid 3♣.

This allows you to stop in 2M when opener has a dog (assuming the opps pass) and to show a limit raise with borderline hands since you can get out at the 2 level.
It also takes the 3 card limit raise out of the forcing NT, making semi-forcing make more sense to me.

And there's loads of room for game tries, advance slam tries etc.

Off course things could get dicey if the opps intervene, but it won't always be that bothersome.

[jdonn]

Obvious limit raise to begin with, then made even more obvious since the limit raise is 2♣ (so presumably you can stop in 2 opposite a rejection anyway).

xcurt, on Sep 24 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

This also lets partner make game tries showing something.  Facing diamond shortness, for example, is bad.  Heart shortness might not be so bad though.

Odd you suggest making a constructive raise in order to leave room for specific game tries. They have more room over their limit raise than their constructive raise.

[peachy]

This is a 3-card limit raise. Since you do have a bid that directly shows a 3-card limit raise, use it.

[gnasher]

neilkaz, on Sep 24 2009, 06:51 PM, said:

A question for all... why not play 2♣ as reverse drury in all seats. When unpassed it can be either a limit raise, or limit raise+ if you prefer and when unpassed holding the 2/1 GF ♣ hand you rebid 3♣.

Because it means that opener doesn't get to say anything about his shape until we're at the three level. It's true that we learn more about opener's high-card strength, but that's not as useful.

For example, in the natural auction
  1♠-2♣
  2♦-2NT
  3♣
opener has shown his entire shape to within one card

In your suggested methods it would go
  1♠-2♣
  2♦/♠-2NT (2NT ought to be natural with clubs)
and opener can show his diamonds or his club support, but not both.

Similarly, if opener is 5-5, playing standard methods he gets to bid his second suit twice, but with your suggestion he doesn't.

You can make this stuff work, but not without a fair amount of complexity. You can't afford to waste the entire two-level.

[kgr]

neilkaz, on Sep 24 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Sep 24 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

If 2♣ shows a limit raise, this is a limit raise.  Presumably you don't have any "mini-splinter" option any other way, so this must be it.

A question on your gadget... what do you bid when you have real ♣ or does rebidding 3♣ show the 2/1 GF hand with real ♣?

1M-2♣
2♦/2♥-3♣
 
2♣=3cM and limit+
If opener is minimum:
   2♦=minimum 5c♥ or good hand with 5c♥ and 4+c♦
   2♥=6c♥
3♣=GF with ♣
 
 
We use 1M-3♣ as a 4 card raise with 7-9pts, but we could have used that for a limit hand with ♣. Now we can't bid that (we bid 1M-2C-2D-2NT or bid GF with ..2C...3C)