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Are forcing passes on after 2/1? Whats a dbl here?

#1 User is offline   zheddh 

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Posted 2009-September-23, 15:09

1 - (p) - 2 - (2)
?


What are the meaning of the various bids here?


Thanks in advance
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#2 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-September-23, 15:31

double is penalty, other bids are natural, 3H shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.
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#3 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2009-September-23, 17:09

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

double is penalty, other bids are natural, 3H shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.

seems entirely reasonable and easy to remember :(
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#4 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-September-23, 17:34

And to clarify, 2 shows at least 6 now even if it would have only promised 5 without interference, since you are free to pass with just 5.

Also I would recommend to treat 3 as a 'high level reverse' or whatever you call it, meaning give it the same strength and suit quality requirements as the clubs in an auction like this one.
1 - 2 -
3
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#5 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-September-23, 17:42

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

double is penalty, other bids are natural, 3H shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.


We all know that cuebid by Responder shows support for Opener's suit ( limit raise or better ).

But I don't think it works the other-way-around for Opener's cuebid.
3H! is a general force, to be clarified later. It is asking for more info with the first priority as asking for a Ht-stop.
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#6 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-September-23, 17:52

ONEferBRID, on Sep 23 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

double is penalty, other bids are natural, 3H shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.


We all know that cuebid by Responder shows support for Opener's suit ( limit raise or better ).

But I don't think it works the other-way-around for Opener's cuebid.
3H! is a general force, to be clarified later. It is asking for more info with the first priority as asking for a Ht-stop.

no not really
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#7 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2009-September-23, 18:20

ONEferBRID, on Sep 23 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

double is penalty, other bids are natural, 3H shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.


We all know that cuebid by Responder shows support for Opener's suit ( limit raise or better ).

But I don't think it works the other-way-around for Opener's cuebid.
3H! is a general force, to be clarified later. It is asking for more info with the first priority as asking for a Ht-stop.

You are ignoring that the auction is game forcing and pass is forcing. If opener is balanced, he should always pass (and responder will bid 2N with a stopper unless he has s.th. more important to say). If opener has support but no shortness, he bids 3. If he has a long spades, he rebids spades. You never need to bid 3 unless you have a distributional hand, and it is clearly more useful to make 3 a well-defined bid with a distributional hand in case advancer makes a preemptive heart raise.
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#8 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-September-23, 19:18

Is 2C 2/1 GF or 1 Rnd force ?
... or does it matter ?
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#9 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 01:56

ONEferBRID, on Sep 24 2009, 03:18 AM, said:

Is 2C 2/1 GF or 1 Rnd force ?
... or does it matter ?

It does matter (in general) whether the 2/1 was GF.

In 2/1 GF, anything below game, including pass, is forcing, with the exception of a penalty double.
But pairs that play a 2/1 as a one round force, usually have the agreement that after a 2/1, the auction is forcing through a certain level. Examples of common agreements are: forcing through 2NT, forcing until suit agreement or game forcing unless responder rebids his suit.

I don't know anyone who plays American style 2/1 's (GF (2/1 GF) or INV+ (SAYC)) and has the agreement that a pass below 2 of opener's suit (as in this case) is non forcing. As long as you play something that looks like SAYC or 2/1 (and this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum), this pass is forcing. So, in this case, it doesn't matter whether the 2/1 was GF or just a one round force.

Rik
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#10 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 19:33

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 06:52 PM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Sep 23 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

double is penalty, other bids are natural, 3H shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.


We all know that cuebid by Responder shows support for Opener's suit ( limit raise or better ).

But I don't think it works the other-way-around for Opener's cuebid.
3H! is a general force, to be clarified later. It is asking for more info with the first priority as asking for a Ht-stop.

no not really

I yield.
Although some "outside" non-experts like myself held the opinion that 3H! was a stop-ask, the expert opinion was that 3H! was better served as a splinter for Responder's Cl.
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#11 User is offline   reisig 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 04:43

Sorry to disagree -
I use X as NOT penalty - some good hand (not w 4C)
With a penalty ...I Pass and await partner to re-open w X (w a "normal" hand).
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#12 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 06:14

I prefer to play dbl as either showing a balanced hand or as t/o. But penalty is probably "standard".
If you don't have an agreement, you don't have an illegal agreement. Except in the ACBL, where apparently you can have an agreement even if you don't have one :) --- Blackshoe
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#13 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 08:44

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

3H! shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.

Another expert agreed that Opener's 3H! was a splinter and not a stop-ask, BUT said it could be a splinter for either:
    a)  partner's Cl ... or
    b ) a self-splinter for his Sp.
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#14 User is offline   DWM 

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Posted 2009-September-27, 03:54

I like X as pen, teach them for messing about with our hand.

Pass is 100% forcing with nothing more to say at the moment

As finding out if we have a NT game is very high in the list of things to do I think 3 should be asking for a half stop as if I am balanced without any control in hearts I would pass and let P make the next move.

3/ should show 5/4 hands, again with 3 card support I think its more important to search for the 3NT first.

2 shows 6+ spades.

Not too sure what 3 should show guess some sort of long near solid spade suit with outside Aces

4 RCKB in clubs

2NT is natural, but not too sure what 3NT should show. Playing safe I think its just to play but then you are already forcing to game so 2NT says I want to play in NT's so without any special agreement 2NT must show some extras.
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#15 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-September-27, 06:48

ONEferBRID, on Sep 26 2009, 09:44 AM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

3H! shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.

Another expert agreed that Opener's 3H! was a splinter and not a stop-ask, BUT said it could be a splinter for either:
    a)  partner's Cl ... or
    b ) a self-splinter for his Sp.


Another, a national champion, said:

3H! doesn't ask for a stopper-- a (forcing) Pass does that....
...and:
c) 3H! does not ( necessarily ) show shortness.
He said he would bid 3H! on:

A K x x x x
A x
x x
K J x
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#16 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-September-27, 12:09

ONEferBRID, on Sep 27 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Sep 26 2009, 09:44 AM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

3H! shows short hearts and 4+ clubs.

Another expert agreed that Opener's 3H! was a splinter and not a stop-ask, BUT said it could be a splinter for either:
    a)  partner's Cl ... or
    b ) a self-splinter for his Sp.


Another, a national champion, said:

3H! doesn't ask for a stopper-- a (forcing) Pass does that....
...and:
c) 3H! does not ( necessarily ) show shortness.
He said he would bid 3H! on:

A K x x x x
A x
x x
K J x

And how is that better than 2?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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