Are forcing passes on after 2/1? Whats a dbl here?
#1
Posted 2009-September-23, 15:09
?
What are the meaning of the various bids here?
Thanks in advance
#2
Posted 2009-September-23, 15:31
#3
Posted 2009-September-23, 17:09
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:
seems entirely reasonable and easy to remember
the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
#4
Posted 2009-September-23, 17:34
Also I would recommend to treat 3♦ as a 'high level reverse' or whatever you call it, meaning give it the same strength and suit quality requirements as the clubs in an auction like this one.
1♠ - 2♦ -
3♣
#5
Posted 2009-September-23, 17:42
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:
We all know that cuebid by Responder shows support for Opener's suit ( limit raise or better ).
But I don't think it works the other-way-around for Opener's cuebid.
3H! is a general force, to be clarified later. It is asking for more info with the first priority as asking for a Ht-stop.
#6
Posted 2009-September-23, 17:52
ONEferBRID, on Sep 23 2009, 06:42 PM, said:
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:
We all know that cuebid by Responder shows support for Opener's suit ( limit raise or better ).
But I don't think it works the other-way-around for Opener's cuebid.
3H! is a general force, to be clarified later. It is asking for more info with the first priority as asking for a Ht-stop.
no not really
#7
Posted 2009-September-23, 18:20
ONEferBRID, on Sep 23 2009, 06:42 PM, said:
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:
We all know that cuebid by Responder shows support for Opener's suit ( limit raise or better ).
But I don't think it works the other-way-around for Opener's cuebid.
3H! is a general force, to be clarified later. It is asking for more info with the first priority as asking for a Ht-stop.
You are ignoring that the auction is game forcing and pass is forcing. If opener is balanced, he should always pass (and responder will bid 2N with a stopper unless he has s.th. more important to say). If opener has support but no shortness, he bids 3♣. If he has a long spades, he rebids spades. You never need to bid 3♥ unless you have a distributional hand, and it is clearly more useful to make 3♥ a well-defined bid with a distributional hand in case advancer makes a preemptive heart raise.
#8
Posted 2009-September-23, 19:18
... or does it matter ?
#9
Posted 2009-September-24, 01:56
ONEferBRID, on Sep 24 2009, 03:18 AM, said:
... or does it matter ?
It does matter (in general) whether the 2/1 was GF.
In 2/1 GF, anything below game, including pass, is forcing, with the exception of a penalty double.
But pairs that play a 2/1 as a one round force, usually have the agreement that after a 2/1, the auction is forcing through a certain level. Examples of common agreements are: forcing through 2NT, forcing until suit agreement or game forcing unless responder rebids his suit.
I don't know anyone who plays American style 2/1 's (GF (2/1 GF) or INV+ (SAYC)) and has the agreement that a pass below 2 of opener's suit (as in this case) is non forcing. As long as you play something that looks like SAYC or 2/1 (and this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum), this pass is forcing. So, in this case, it doesn't matter whether the 2/1 was GF or just a one round force.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#10
Posted 2009-September-24, 19:33
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 06:52 PM, said:
ONEferBRID, on Sep 23 2009, 06:42 PM, said:
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:
We all know that cuebid by Responder shows support for Opener's suit ( limit raise or better ).
But I don't think it works the other-way-around for Opener's cuebid.
3H! is a general force, to be clarified later. It is asking for more info with the first priority as asking for a Ht-stop.
no not really
I yield.
Although some "outside" non-experts like myself held the opinion that 3H! was a stop-ask, the expert opinion was that 3H! was better served as a splinter for Responder's Cl.
#11
Posted 2009-September-25, 04:43
I use X as NOT penalty - some good hand (not w 4C)
With a penalty ...I Pass and await partner to re-open w X (w a "normal" hand).
#12
Posted 2009-September-25, 06:14
#13
Posted 2009-September-26, 08:44
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:
Another expert agreed that Opener's 3H! was a splinter and not a stop-ask, BUT said it could be a splinter for either:
a) partner's Cl ... or
b ) a self-splinter for his Sp.
#14
Posted 2009-September-27, 03:54
Pass is 100% forcing with nothing more to say at the moment
As finding out if we have a NT game is very high in the list of things to do I think 3♥ should be asking for a half stop as if I am balanced without any control in hearts I would pass and let P make the next move.
3♣/♦ should show 5/4 hands, again with 3 card ♣ support I think its more important to search for the 3NT first.
2♠ shows 6+ spades.
Not too sure what 3♠ should show guess some sort of long near solid spade suit with outside Aces
4♣ RCKB in clubs
2NT is natural, but not too sure what 3NT should show. Playing safe I think its just to play but then you are already forcing to game so 2NT says I want to play in NT's so without any special agreement 2NT must show some extras.
#15
Posted 2009-September-27, 06:48
ONEferBRID, on Sep 26 2009, 09:44 AM, said:
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:
Another expert agreed that Opener's 3H! was a splinter and not a stop-ask, BUT said it could be a splinter for either:
a) partner's Cl ... or
b ) a self-splinter for his Sp.
Another, a national champion, said:
3H! doesn't ask for a stopper-- a (forcing) Pass does that....
...and:
c) 3H! does not ( necessarily ) show shortness.
He said he would bid 3H! on:
A K x x x x
A x
x x
K J x
#16
Posted 2009-September-27, 12:09
ONEferBRID, on Sep 27 2009, 07:48 AM, said:
ONEferBRID, on Sep 26 2009, 09:44 AM, said:
Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 04:31 PM, said:
Another expert agreed that Opener's 3H! was a splinter and not a stop-ask, BUT said it could be a splinter for either:
a) partner's Cl ... or
b ) a self-splinter for his Sp.
Another, a national champion, said:
3H! doesn't ask for a stopper-- a (forcing) Pass does that....
...and:
c) 3H! does not ( necessarily ) show shortness.
He said he would bid 3H! on:
A K x x x x
A x
x x
K J x
And how is that better than 2♠?