[duschek]

During the play, a defender makes a lead out of turn.

"Director!" says dummy. Your ruling? (Dummy has not violated Law 43A2).

[RMB1]

Law 43 says there should be a procedural penalty: this should be a fine of the standard amount.

Nothing in Law 43 tells us what to do about the irregularity, so Law 81C3 applies.

Quote

Law 81 C
3. to rectify an error or irregularity of which he becomes aware in any manner, within the correction period established in accordance with Law 79C.

So the TD applies the appropriate law(s) to the lead out of turn by defender.

Robin

[duschek]

RMB1, on Sep 14 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

So the TD applies the appropriate law(s) to the lead out of turn by defender.

Suppose that declarer is not aware that the lead is out of turn but would clearly gain from having it rectified. Now dummy can inflict immediate damage on the opponents by blatantly violating a Law. That bothers me!

Is this issue well-known, and does anybody know the reasoning behind?

[sfi]

The law is primarily "designed for the rectification of situations where non-offenders may otherwise be damaged" (Introduction to the 2007 Laws). The opponents have already committed an irregularity, so it is reasonable that the director applies the law even if dummy points it out.

However, dummy has also committed an irregularity and it is reasonable that the declaring side does not benefit from that. Hence the suggestion of a procedural penalty.

One other issue that the director needs to check. Did dummy point it out, or did dummy call the director after someone else already pointed it out? If the second, then dummy is entitled to call the director and no penalty is called for (9B1).

[aguahombre]

sfi, on Sep 15 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

One other issue that the director needs to check.  Did dummy point it out, or did dummy call the director after someone else already pointed it out?  If the second, then dummy is entitled to call the director and no penalty is called for (9B1).

Not trying to sidetrack, but was wondering about that. Certainly dummy may be the one to call the director at the behest of another player, for instance if dummy has the loudest voice. but interested in not just ACBL land whether, once an irregularity has been pointed out by one of the other 3 players, dummy may choose to call the director when no one else has requested same. Can dummy even ask if a player would like the director to come?

[blackshoe]

Law 9B1{b} said:

Any player, including dummy, may summon the director after attention has been drawn to an irregularity.

So if someone else calls attention to an irregularity, dummy can call the director.

Law 9B1{c} said:

Summoning the director does not cause a player to forfeit any rights to which he might otherwise be entitled.

So dummy cannot lose rights for calling the director (see Laws 42 and 43 for what rights dummy has, which he can lose, and how he can lose them).

If attention has been called to an irregularity, dummy can summon the director, or ask another player if he would like the director to be summoned, or suggest that the director be summoned.

Note also

Law 9B1{a} said:

The director should be summoned at once when attention is drawn to an irregularity.

This means that when attention has been drawn to an irregularity, the responsibility for all four players is to call the director, and not, for example, to ignore it, or make (or allow someone else to make) their own rulings.

[barmar]

What often happens is that an irregularity occurs, and some of the players will start trying to deal with it themselves, because they don't understand the "always call the director" rule. But hopefully one of the players understands this and will tell them to stop, and call the director to sort it out. What that law makes clear is that it's OK for this player to be the dummy -- this is one of the few ways in which dummy is allowed to take an active role.

[aguahombre]

aguahombre, on Sep 15 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

sfi, on Sep 15 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

One other issue that the director needs to check.  Did dummy point it out, or did dummy call the director after someone else already pointed it out?  If the second, then dummy is entitled to call the director and no penalty is called for (9B1).

Not trying to sidetrack, but was wondering about that. Certainly dummy may be the one to call the director at the behest of another player, for instance if dummy has the loudest voice. but interested in not just ACBL land whether, once an irregularity has been pointed out by one of the other 3 players, dummy may choose to call the director when no one else has requested same. Can dummy even ask if a player would like the director to come?

I got two answers from ACBL people. Law 9B1 sub b is clear for ACBL that dummy can be the one who calls for the director once attention to an irregularity has been brought. Was hoping to find out if it is universal, hence "not just in ACBL land" was part of the question.

[pran]

aguahombre, on Sep 16 2009, 04:36 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Sep 15 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

sfi, on Sep 15 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

One other issue that the director needs to check.  Did dummy point it out, or did dummy call the director after someone else already pointed it out?  If the second, then dummy is entitled to call the director and no penalty is called for (9B1).

Not trying to sidetrack, but was wondering about that. Certainly dummy may be the one to call the director at the behest of another player, for instance if dummy has the loudest voice. but interested in not just ACBL land whether, once an irregularity has been pointed out by one of the other 3 players, dummy may choose to call the director when no one else has requested same. Can dummy even ask if a player would like the director to come?

I got two answers from ACBL people. Law 9B1 sub b is clear for ACBL that dummy can be the one who calls for the director once attention to an irregularity has been brought. Was hoping to find out if it is universal, hence "not just in ACBL land" was part of the question.

This is certainly not ACBL-land only!

I shall be most surprised if there exist anywhere in the world a prohibition against dummy calling the director, even at his own initiative, once attention has been called to an irregularity.

regards Sven

[blackshoe]

If there is such a prohibition, it's by regulation, and probably not a legal one.

General speaking (but not, unfortunately, always) if it's in the law book, it applies everywhere. There are elections, which may result in differences from place to place (for example, whether to use Law 12C1{e} (ACBL) or Law 12C1{c} (everywhere else) when awarding an assigned adjusted score.