[peachy]

In one of my partnerships, we have decided to try a strong club system.
Can someone point me to a good resource or system notes for a suitable system for someone who hasn't played big club systems before, please.
Appreciate any help, comments, suggestions.

[helene_t]

AWM made a cool system with 1♥=4+clubs, 2♣=twosuiter with 5+ hearts and 2♥=6+ hearts. Csaba and I played it at the Brasov Festival last year.

Of course you can also start with vanilla precision but that's a little lame

[Mbodell]

I'd recommend starting with Precision Today by David Berkowitz and Brent Manley.

They cover some of the most common forms of precision and have several different options. If you play some flavor of that for a while (I like transfer positives) you will get a good feel for basic precision and then decide if you want someone else's more unusual tweaked system.

[PrecisionL]

Check out Dan Neils System Page:

http://bridgewithdan.com/systems/

However, you will really want to start simple. Lots of used books on Precision abound by Goren, Reese, Jannersten, Wei.

I particularly like One Club Complete by Radin and Wei (Kathy).

Larry

[the hog]

It is not a good idea to start with homegrown systems as unless the designer is particularly careful and skilled, there will invariably be holes in the system.
Start with something simple but comprehensive until you get the feel for a strong Club system. Either the Jannersten of the David Berkowitz and Brent Manley book would be a good starting point.

[peachy]

My old bridge library has five books on Precision and three summary booklets(Jannersten, Reese, C C Wei, Goren, CC Wei & Ron Andersen). I haven't started on reading them yet.

Are these outdated or still valid? Which one should we pick as basis if they are still good? Or should I get the Berkovitz-Manley book instead?

Thanks again for your comments.

[the hog]

The Jannersten book is pretty good. I wouldn't really bother about the others except as curios. Another good one is Power Precision, by Alan Sonntag.

[effervesce]

Don't forget about moscito. Couldn't find another website with it but this one has the moscito 2002 bidding system writeup (free signup to obtain the pdf file, or PM me)

http://www.scribd.co...4/Moscito-Notes

If you want vanilla precision, then any of the C.C.Wei books will be an ok starting point. Although outdated, basically everyone who plays precision knows it and therefore is much easier to find someone who knows it.

[the hog]

The 2005 version is on Dan Neill's site,. First timers big clubbers would be VERY unwise to try Moscito.

[effervesce]

The_Hog, on Sep 8 2009, 03:10 AM, said:

The 2005 version is on Dan Neill's site,. First timers big clubbers would be VERY unwise to try Moscito.

The 2005 version on Dan's site is a very brief intro with no detail, nowhere near enough to play the system.

Yes, Moscito is significantly more difficult to learn than precision. But knowing precision doesn't make it all that much easier to learn moscito - going straight from natural to moscito isn't that much more difficult than from precision to moscito. There's a similar learning curve for both paths.

[the hog]

effervesce, on Sep 8 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 8 2009, 03:10 AM, said:

The 2005 version is on Dan Neill's site,. First timers big clubbers would be VERY unwise to try Moscito.

The 2005 version on Dan's site is a very brief intro with no detail, nowhere near enough to play the system.

Yes, Moscito is significantly more difficult to learn than precision. But knowing precision doesn't make it all that much easier to learn moscito - going straight from natural to moscito isn't that much more difficult than from precision to moscito. There's a similar learning curve for both paths.

Well, I have played Moscito almost as long as Paul, and I disagree strongly. Imo there is a very steep curve going from natural to a 4C WNT often canape system using relays.

I have a very thorough version Paul played a few years ago; don't know whether it is here or in Oz though.

[csdenmark]

peachy, on Sep 7 2009, 11:22 PM, said:

In one of my partnerships, we have decided to try a strong club system.
Can someone point me to a good resource or system notes for a suitable system for someone who hasn't played big club systems before, please.
Appreciate any help, comments, suggestions.

You will find what you are asking for on bridgefiles web-sites

[TimG]

WJ2005 (A modern version of Polish Club) is available here. This is translation of Krzystof Jassem's book in its entirety.

[glen]

TimG, on Sep 8 2009, 08:47 AM, said:

WJ2005 (A modern version of Polish Club) is available here.  This is translation of Krzystof Jassem's book in its entirety.

In the latest issue of The Bridge World, Kokish/Kraft started calling Polish type systems "Little Club systems", which I happen to like. It seems though the op was looking for big, not little.

[hrothgar]

The_Hog, on Sep 8 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

effervesce, on Sep 8 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 8 2009, 03:10 AM, said:

The 2005 version is on Dan Neill's site,. First timers big clubbers would be VERY unwise to try Moscito.

The 2005 version on Dan's site is a very brief intro with no detail, nowhere near enough to play the system.

Yes, Moscito is significantly more difficult to learn than precision. But knowing precision doesn't make it all that much easier to learn moscito - going straight from natural to moscito isn't that much more difficult than from precision to moscito. There's a similar learning curve for both paths.

Well, I have played Moscito almost as long as Paul, and I disagree strongly. Imo there is a very steep curve going from natural to a 4C WNT often canape system using relays.

I have a very thorough version Paul played a few years ago; don't know whether it is here or in Oz though.

IMHO...

The learning curve for MOSCITO is primarily a function of the "majors first", four card majors style. If you're coming from a situation where you're already experienced with 4 card majors (you're used to Acol, or Blue Club, or whatever) then MOSCITO should be a pretty easy transition.

If the bulk of your experience has been playing 2/1 or SAYC or some such, then MOSCITO is going to be a nightmare. You will (essentially) be forced to learn two radically different approaches

1. An artifical bidding structure over 1♣
2. A dramatically different opening / raise structure over your constructive openings.

If you have any interest in ever learning MOSCITO, your best appraoch might be to use a Symmetric Relay structure over your strong club and use a Precision type structure for 1♦ - 2♦.

You'll be able to free up your 2NT opening, so you can use this for any one of a variety of preempts.

[helene_t]

I think Berkowitz/Manley is a good book for what it is but it doesn't cover the system in depth.

I like Reese's book also but it is very old-fashioned.

Someone really needs to write a modern, in-depth Precision book.

[ulven]

It's been a while since I opened it, but I remember thinking Barry Rigal's Precision in the 90's was pretty good.

I don't know if I still think that though...

[nigel_k]

It depends on why you are taking up a big club system. If you just want to try it out then I'm sure other people's book recommendations are fine.

If you are doing it to improve your slam bidding then IMO you need relays (google "Symmetric Relay"). You don't have to master the basics first. I've never played a strong club without relays and doubt I ever would. You need the accuracy gain of relays to offset the other losses and make it worthwhile.

[quiddity]

peachy, on Sep 7 2009, 04:22 PM, said:

In one of my partnerships, we have decided to try a strong club system.
Can someone point me to a good resource or system notes for a suitable system for someone who hasn't played big club systems before, please.
Appreciate any help, comments, suggestions.

When you start playing the strong club, you'll run into some unfamiliar problems (handling interference over 1C for example). Often these will require good judgment on your part, and it will help immensely if you can ask the advice of strong players who are familiar with your system. Identify some potential advisors in your area: the strongest players you can find who play a strong club and who don't mind answering your constant barrage of questions. Then ask them for a skeleton outline, standard openings/responses with as little gadgetry as possible, and play it for a while. You will start to identify holes and your advisors can help you fill them with an appropriate gadget if necessary.

If you don't know anyone in your area who can help, start with a book. The Berkowitz is probably a reasonable start, and it's standard enough that you can ask advice from players on the forums.

My partner and I have been tinkering with the Marshal Miles "Unbalanced Diamond" for a while and by FAR the biggest downside of the system is that it's difficult to find good advice. Beware of home-grown or uncommon systems.

[mtvesuvius]

Precision Today seems to be an excellent starting point for people looking to learn precision imo.