[agusaris]

Some tourney's allow an undo for a misclick, some don't and everyone who signs up is or should be aware of the rule.

A recent incident in a tourney which allows undo gives rise to the question "At what stage in play does this right to an undo expire" I was declarer and my RHO led the seven of spades. Holding QJx I played the queen, my LHO followed low and I won the trick. Playing in tempo I now led to the next trick whereupon my RHO asked for an undo. I refused as I felt it was too late. The TD was called, I explained the situation and the director adjusts the board Ave+ to opps Ave- to us. It seems unjust. I have no problem allowing an undo before a trick is quitted but feel the undo privilage should expire with the trick. Perhaps some TD's would care to comment.

[1eyedjack]

I should have thought that in tourneys where undos are permitted they are still permitted only at the discretion of those with the power to accept or reject, ie the opponents of the requester. The TD has nothing to do with that decision, and you have the absolute right to reject an undo however prompt the request and however early in the proceedings of the hand. It might be churlish to do so, depending on the particular facts, but that is another matter.

I suppose that the finer points of when it is permitted and/or required to accept is something that could vary from tourney to tourney - the TD can make up whatever rules he wishes (unless regulated by an NBO of course).

[jillybean]

FWIW In my games I do not allow undo’s for cards played. The laws don’t allow for a card to be withdrawn once it has been played and I think the only sensible approach is to consider a card clicked, a card played. Players should be paying attention and in my opinion, misclicks are caused largely by inattention.

I will say not a lot of TD’s take such a hard ball approach, preferring instead to provide a friendly game and making undo’s mandatory.


Have we forgotten the infamous 2003 Bermuda Bowl Finals, a card touched is a card played.

[1eyedjack]

PS.

I would just add that IF (big if) the purpose of the TD allowing Undos was to simulate as far as possible the Laws of bridge as applied offline, bearing in mind that absolute online correlation with the circumstances specified in those laws is not really possible, then the only scope for changing an exposed card would I think be under Law 45C4(b.) It might be hard to argue that online the provision overrides Law 45C1, which is why online hosts of serious or semiserious events who allow Undos generally limit their use to the auction, where Law 25 is a bit more generous. Arguably this may be an example of how the offline laws are not well designed to transport to the online game.

However, assuming that the tourney host is prepared to accept that Law 45C4(b.) is the provision that allows the Undo in play, then even so it cannot I think stretch to fit the circumstances outlined in the OP.

All of that assumes that the purpose of allowing Undos is to attempt to mirror the offline environment, which assumption may well be unwarranted.

[Tola18]

There is some extra point of such frivolous use of undos.

Playing a shaky contract, it is often the only possibility to make if the opps play wrongly.
In other way, my play is to get them play wrong, feks making a wrong hold up.

If undo is allowed in practically all positions and circumstances, also after the trick is completed as above, it is no longer bridge.

Next point in the same class is; some players dont want to ask for undo unless real miscklick as they are used from f2f bridge it is not OK. Other players with a wider conscience dont hesitate at all...

That said, a player who is not used to use undo, it may take time to find the button for undo. And thus - undo request MAY come late. In fact it happened to me the other day. I misclicked while playing out for lead. When I asked for undo, the dummy was already visible... Luckily enough, my prepared lead was an entirely standard top of sequence... Nothing fancy.



However, profusely free undos should be OK in beginners tournaments.

[mtvesuvius]

I believe in general that an undo should be allowed before partner has taken any sort of action... whether it's bidding or playing... especially as 4th hand to a trick. Of course there are Grosvenor exceptions:

---

Declarer leads small, small, 8... then an undo is asked for. Nope.

It's tough to draw a line here, which leads me to believe that once the next hand has played to the trick, an undo should not be allowed...

[onoway]

If an obvious misclick or if before the card has been covered then I will generally allow them UNLESS I see the same person using the misclick button a lot in which case I allow nothing. They need to get their attention span up and/or their mouse fixed as false starts definitely can give information to p. For beginners...at a casual table, undos ad nauseum, but not in a tourney...encourages the wrong attitude for the time they are ready for bigger and better things.

Imo, there isn't much point in forcing a pair who clearly are bidding up to 6 or 7 ♥ to play the slam in ♠ as the result of a misclick. That doesn't seem to be bridge either

[olegru]

I had a good laugh with undo recently. Here it is: http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer...0222-1252631008
I was dummy. On the third move North ruffed clubs and then underlead ♥ trying to get partner for the second ruff. South play 10 and declarer (with J9) put 9. No requests for undo.
Now South played ♥ back instead of ♣ for partner to ruff. Declarer played Jack, North typed: ??? and South asked for undo.
Undo get rejected and North asked for director – How dare declarer to reject undo in this circumstances?!
This case director hand the case correctly, but I really like my opponent undo attitude

[JoAnneM]

I think not allowing undo's in play is very harsh. You have to stop and think about why people are playing online to begin with. Many are unable to get out to their clubs and tournaments anymore. They have arthritis in their hands, trouble with the mouse, trouble seeing the cards.

I think it is wonderful that online bridge is available for people who are physically challenged in some way. Hopefully they are not the ones who would abuse the undo feature afforded in the more accommodating tournaments.

[pooltuna]

jillybean, on Sep 2 2009, 09:00 AM, said:

FWIW In my games I do not allow undo’s for cards played. The laws don’t allow for a card to be withdrawn once it has been played and I think the only sensible approach is to consider a card clicked, a card played. Players should be paying attention and in my opinion, misclicks are caused largely by inattention.

I will say not a lot of TD’s take such a hard ball approach, preferring instead to provide a friendly game and making undo’s mandatory.


Have we forgotten the infamous 2003 Bermuda Bowl Finals, a card touched is a card played.

Kiwis are hard nuts to crack!...Oh, Wait it is a fruit ....

[1eyedjack]

pooltuna, on Sep 20 2009, 02:59 AM, said:

Kiwis are hard nuts to crack!...Oh, Wait it is a fruit ....

Is it a fruit? Is it a bird? Is it a boot polish? No wait, it is..

[dlbalt]

1eyedjack, on Sep 2 2009, 08:19 AM, said:

The TD has nothing to do with that decision, and you have the absolute right to reject an undo however prompt the request and however early in the proceedings of the hand.  It might be churlish to do so, depending on the particular facts, but that is another matter.

Paying attention is part of the game. If a player plays the wrong card, or makes the wrong bid, it is the player's problem. Imagine a baseball player asking the umpire to nullify a strike because he swung at it by mistake.

Generally, an undo should not be granted. Players should pay the penalty for failure to pay attention to the hand, and granting an undo is simply encouraging sloppy play and lazy thinking. If we all stopped granting undos, there would be far fewer requests for them. The quality of the game would improve all around.

In addition, unless there is a technical problem that makes the wrong card jump out when the mouse is activated, it is not a misclick. (I've had technical problems like that happen once or twice since I started playing bridge online years ago. I've probably made a few hundred truly bad plays or calls because I allowed myself to be distracted. I don't ask for undos.)

While I am on this rant, the word misclick should be banned from the online bridge lexicon. Maybe players who use it could have a large M appear next to their names? Or is that too much to hope for?

[barmar]

A few years ago my online partner was having a problem with her laptop, where it would register clicks when she didn't mean it. I suspect the trackpad may have been set to allow tapping to act as a click, and it was overly sensitive. She had about one misclick a session when that was happening. This was on OKbridge, where the 7NT bid was right above the Pass button, and she once bid 7NT by accident.

But I agree with you that at least 95% of undo requests are usually due to playing too quickly and not paying attention. E.g. you lead towards your AQ, intending to finesse, and play the Q before you realize that 2nd hand put up the K. I say "you", but I actually mean "me", because I've done this, both online and f2f, and would never consider asking for an undo.

[1eyedjack]

Indeed, as defender I sometimes put in the (non-singleton) King in front of the AQ, expecting declarer to finesse if I play low and hoping that he is sufficiently sleepy to finesse when I play the King. It is galling to have that ruse succeed only then to have the declarer request an undo.

[bluecalm]

"Undos allowed" should mean: "You can make an undo if your opponents desire to give you that chance". If they reject you can't do it, no whining, no complaining.
Any other rule is just insane. I think the TD in op doesn't understand spirit of competetive games.

[aguahombre]

Sorry for the Hijack, but don't know where else to put this. Do you think the forum admin will ever "undo" daylight savings time?

[billw55]

eh, what? The TD is enforcing allowing undos? By awarding average+ to the side requesting the undo!?



Out of curiosity, are masterpoints being awarded in such "tournaments"?

[barmar]

aguahombre, on Nov 2 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Sorry for the Hijack, but don't know where else to put this.  Do you think the forum admin will ever "undo" daylight savings time?

What's so hard about starting a new thread for an unrelated question?

Anyway, the answer is to click on My Controls, then Board Settings, and uncheck the "Is Daylight Savings Time in Effect" box.

[Tola18]

I had an unpleasant experience yesterday about undos and "misclick".
Where being careless and sloppy was excused by "misclick".

After misbidding the hand - now afterwards Im not even sure everything was pards fault! - we got into a bad spade contract instead of a decent diamonds. Opps bid hearts.

My hand was 4 spades, Kx hearts, 6 diamonds, 1 club.

Bidding went 1D, lefty 1H, pard 2D, righty 2H, me 2sp, Lefty 3H, pard 3sp, which I was allowed to keep.

Pard had 3 sp, 9xx h, , 3d, 4c. Thus a diamond contract was what the doctor prescibed.

Diamond ace come out, followed by another. I misguessed the diamond layout, and righty comes in, returns a heart. I follow small, Lefty plays on ace, and after some moments asks for undo - "misclick".

But Lefty had AKn108x. So he could hardly micklick as the ace wasnt adjacent to the critical cards of 10 and 8. The 8 or kn would be misclick, but not the ace. It was simply sloppy play by him, or he did expected the king and didnt watched out....Very sloppy and undisciplined.

Besides, playing against a shaky contract, you MUST focus. Play carelessly you can only do against an ironclad contract, where nothing much matters.
Or if you want, playing a shaky contract my only chance IS if opps make some mistake. Thus I feel I as declarer do have the right to use every opportunity I can get.


If it is a very young player, say Betty 12 years, asking for miscklick, I dont accept refusing even if the claim of misclick perhaps isnt 100 trustworthy. A gentleman simply doesnt do it. I immediately delete the refusers or leave these opps. Right or not, I do it as a matter of principle.
The peculiar thing is this DO happens, Adult players repeatedly refusing undo for child players. This happened us several times, as I do often play with juniors, and thus also with young junioresses.

But by almost the same reasoning, I dont feel comfortable with adult, experienced players abusing the privilege of miscklick and undo...

I may accept it in friendly play where it really doesnt matter. But is is highly unpleasant in competion and destroys my pleasure also in the rest of the tournament....



Comments are welcome.