[jmcw]

I've been searching in vain for comprehensive documentation on Jeff Rubens Kickback Convention.
The area of particular interest ( and considerable confusion) is the King showing response structure. If anyone has The sweeping mechanism down pat, I sure would be thankful.

[ONEferBRID]

Kickback-RKC ... also dubbed "Redwood".

When Cl are trump...
4D! = RKC for Cl ( say 03, 14, etc )
Replies:
4H = 0 or 3 ( 1st step )
4S = 1 or 4 ( 2nd step )
4NT = 2 - cQ
5C = 2 + cQ

After the reply, the "next step" is trump Q-ask ( as is normally the case with 4NT-RKC )

BUT there is a problem with Redwood when Cl are trump.
Kantar and Hardy both suggest reserving 4NT and 5C as sign-offs, to play.

If the auction goes:
4D! - 4H = 0 or 3
4S = next step, cQ-ask ... no problem

BUT if it goes:
4D! - 4S = 1 or 4
??
then there is no room for a cQ-ask BELOW the 5C level because:
4NT and 5C = signoff.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And the K-ask is
5D! ( you can play either total outside K's or specific K's if you prefer )
=====================================
When Diam are trump there are no problems:
4H! = RKC for Diam ( say 03 14, etc )

After the reply there is ALWAYS room for a dQ-ask
because 5C! is always available.

Again 4NT and 5D are reserved for sign-offs...
And 5H! = K-ask.

- - Don - -

[blackshoe]

I don't know if there's an accepted comprehensive "official" description of Kickback and all its follow ons. I will note that Redwood is not Kickback, as Redwood does not include that 4♠ when ♥ are agreed is RKC, and Kickback does.

As to follow ons, I prefer Romex's "Spiral Scan". Briefly:

Step 1 or 2 response to ace ask: relay asks for the queen of trump
Then, step one denies the trump Q, step 2 shows it and denies (in this order) a side king in a suit bid by the partnership, or the lowest side king. Step 3 shows the Q and that K, and denies either the lowest side king (in the first case) or the next lowest side K. Step 4 shows those 3 cards, and so on. The next relay asks for the next K (or side Q, if all kings have been covered) in the sequence, and so on. Relayer can skip a step. For example if 4♠ asks for the trump Q, 4NT would say "I have the trump Q (or we have a 10 card fit), do you have the first K in the scan?" Similarly later.

If the response is step 3 or 4, denying or showing the trump Q, then the scan starts with the appropriate side K.

4NT and 5♣ are part of the scan, not sign offs. Keep in mind that the primary purpose of Blackwood, whatever flavor, is to stay out of bad slams (which is why, I think Kantar and Hardy suggest 4NT and 5♣ should be sign offs). If you play methods where agreeing these are signoffs is problematic, then you just have to decide which way you're going to go. I will say that I think that 4♦ as the ace ask when clubs are trumps is far better than 4NT.

[ONEferBRID]

Sry... Redwood is just for the minors.

And yes, when Hts are turmp, you can play 4S! = RKC for Hts
and then "Meckwell" plays 4NT! as Voidwood for Hts as trump (= RKC excluding Sp Ace ).

[blackshoe]

Yeah. I would too, if my partners didn't all practically faint every time I bring it up.

[jmcw]

ONEferBRID, on Aug 23 2009, 01:31 PM, said:

Kickback-RKC ... also dubbed "Redwood".

When Cl are trump...
4D! = RKC for Cl ( say 03, 14, etc )
Replies:
4H = 0 or 3 ( 1st step )
4S = 1 or 4 ( 2nd step )
4NT = 2 - cQ
5C = 2 + cQ

After the reply, the "next step" is trump Q-ask ( as is normally the case with  4NT-RKC )

Thanks Don,

Part 1 the key ask I'm ok with.

Part 2 the Q ask reply has a treatment whereby you show King(s) in addition to confirming the Q

Part 3 When not asking for the Q (Asker has it) the King ask is done by making a "sweeping" bid showing consecutive Kings as the ASK.

So I'm stuck on part 2 and 3 since I'm uncertain about the ordering of the Kings...hope this clarifies.

[Cascade]

I can't see anything in "The Useful-Space Principle and Transfer Advances of Overcalls" by Jeff Rubens from The Bridge World.

We play:

After the first ask and one of the first two responses (03 or 14) the next free step (not trumps) is a queen ask. In response 5trumps = no queen, everything else is specific king. If there is a free step we use 4NT as queen with extras (no useful-space principle here). Other6trumps is queen of trumps with no kings.

The second step (not trumps) or the first step (not trumps) after a response showing two key cards simply asks for specific kings.

You could play some sort of denial cues. I did once investigate this but thought that I discovered potential losses.

The suits could be in any order say rank order or you could alter the order if your side has bid a side suit e.g. 1D 1S; 3S 4NT; 5C 5D - the rank could now be diamonds (partner's suit), hearts, clubs.

If both partner's have bid a suit you could further alter: 1D 1H; 1S 3S; 4NT 5C; 5D - diamonds (my suit); hearts (your suit), clubs (remaining suit). By agreement you could alter the order of the first two suits (partner's suit, askers suit, remaining suit).

Now you just use denial cues:

1♦ 1♠;
3♠ 4NT;
5♣ 5♦

5♥ trump queen no diamond king

5♠ no trump queen

5NT trump queen diamond king no heart king

6♣ trump queen diamond king heart king no club king

6♦ trump queen all kings

... etc

1♦ 1♠;
3♠ 4NT;
5♣ 5♦

5♥ 5♠ or maybe 5NT asking if you want to agree that 5♠ is to play

5NT no heart king (next king in sequence)

6♣ heart king, no club king

6♦ both other kings

... etc

1♦ 1♠;
3♠ 4NT;
5♣ 5♦
5♥ 5♠
5NT 6♣ any more

6♦ Club king

similarly

1♦ 1♠;
3♠ 4NT;
5♣ 5♦
5NT 6♣ any more
6♦ no club king
6♥ club king

There are extra steps which theoretically you could use to shows queens.

This actually looks better than i remember it. Maybe I just did not implement it because of the extra work or potential for disaster.

[fromageGB]

I play a sort of kickback (you can search for "green aces") which is simple. The ace ask (there are 5 aces) is the step above 4 trumps. Responses in steps are :
1 ace, or 3 aces without the trump queen
2 aces
3 aces with the trump queen
0 aces (this is the trump suit).
If Teller has 4 aces he gives the king reply (ie above 5 trumps).

Over the first of these Asker can then bid the next step to ask for the trump queen, with replies in steps :
1 ace with the Q
1 ace without the queen (this is 5 of the trump suit)
If Teller has 3 aces with the trump queen he gives the king reply.

Over the 2 ace response, the next step asks for the trump Q, with step replies :
no queen (this is 5 of the trump suit)
If Teller has the trump queen he gives the king reply.

The king ask (confirms all the aces and Q) is again the step above 5 trumps. There are only 3 kings.
Teller with no kings signs off in 6 trumps.
Teller with 3 kings bids 7 trumps.
Teller with 1 or 2 kings bids the cheapest (you use NT to show the K of the asking suit, so with ♦ as trumps, 5NT shows ♥K, so ♥K is cheaper than ♣K for example).
If Asker wants to know if Teller has a second specific king that would enable the grand, he simply bids that suit. Teller signs off in 6 if he does not have that king, bids 7 with it.

All is natural (apart from the NT substitution), the ace steps go 123 so there is never any doubt, and the "nothing" reply is always the trump sign off. You can always play in 5 trumps after the A+Q asking. You can always play in 6 trumps after the K ask.

Simple, but with the normal kickback caveat that you have to have agreed very carefully what the trump suit is taken to be, if it could be ambiguous.

[Trinidad]

King asking after Kickback.

Assume spades are trump. You have asked for aces with 4NT and now ask for kings with 5NT. I know three reasonably popular and relatively simple schemes:

1) The simplest
6♣ 0 kings
6♦ 1 king
6♥ 2 kings
6♠ 3 kings

(You were probably not looking for that. )

2) The "This one, or the other two approach"
6♣ ♣K, no other kings or ♦K+♥K
6♦ ♦K, no other kings or ♣K+♥K
6♥ ♥K, no other kings or ♣K+♦K
6♠ no kings
6NT 3 kings

(Fairly simple, but if the asker doesn't have a king himself it may be difficult to identify whether responder has 1 king, or the other 2.)

3) The "cueing and asking" approach (slightly more complicated, but essentially natural and it can identify every single king)
6♣ I have the ♣K, I could have 1 other king
6♦ I don't have the ♣K, but I have the ♦K, I could have the ♥K
6♥ I only have the ♥K
6♠ I don't have a king
6NT I have 3 kings!
Higher: "Don't worry about kings, if we have all the keycards, we are going to take 13 tricks."

After the 6♦ response (♦K, no ♣K), 6♥ asks for the ♥K (6♠: No; 6NT: Yes)

After the 6♣ response (♣K, 1 other K possible),
- 6♥ asks for the ♥K (6♠: No; 6NT: Yes)
- 6♦ asks for the ♦K (6♥: No, but I have the ♥K, 6♠: No kings; 6NT: Yes)
Thus, if you want to be in a grand slam opposite the ♥K, ask for it with 6♥. If you want to be in a grand slam opposite the ♦K, ask for it with 6♦. If you need just any red king, ask with 6♦. The responder will bid past 6♠ with the ♦K or will tell you that he has the ♥K with 6♥.

Obviously, when spades aren't trump, you used 4 of the next suit (the kickback suit) to ask for keycards and 5 of the kickback suit to ask for kings. The same responses apply, but now responses in NT show the king of the kickback suit (and an ask of 5NT asks for the king in the kickback suit).

Thus, as an example, with diamonds as trump: 5♥ asks for kings
5♠ I have the ♠K, I could have 1 other king (5NT asks for ♥K, 6♣ asks for ♣K)
5NT I don't have the ♠K, but I have the ♥K, I could have the ♣K (6♣ asks for ♣K)
6♣ I only have the ♣K
6♦ I don't have a king
6♥ I have 3 kings!

The same scheme applies after the queen ask, but somewhat cheaper. With spades as trump:
4NT-5♦ (1 or 4, Q unknown)
5♥ asks for Q:
5♠: no Q
5NT: Q, ♥K (king of the asking suit), could have 1 other K
6♣: Q, no ♥K, ♣K, ♦K possible
6♦: Q, only ♦K
6♥/♠: Q, no kings

4NT-5♣ (0 or 3, Q unknown)
5♦ asks for Q:
5♥: Q, and ♥K
5♠: no Q
5NT: Q, no ♥K, ♦K (king in asking suit), could have ♣K
6♣: Q, only ♣K
6♦/♥/♠: Q, no kings

Rik