[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

you could agree, that 2S already showed the fit, I am not 100%
sure that this agreement was in place in the originaly described
scenario.

I would not make a super accept with 4333 an 15HCP.
We play superaccepts with min NT hands, but require some add.
compesantion via shape.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

kayin801, on Aug 27 2009, 06:55 PM, said:

Isn't the real question that's being asked here not whether a 15 pt 4333 is a super accept or not, but whether or not to obey the LoTT right away given a known 9 card fit?

I like th LoTT, but if someone claims he is obeying the LoTT, when
he bids 3S with 4333 just tells me, that he has no idea about the
LoTT and just uses an argument to defend something, but does
not understand the argument, which means I can stop listeng.

Because there are some add. paragraphs like neg. adj.,
which mean you have to lower the number of expected total tricks
and a 4333 shape is certainly a major neg. factor.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gnasher]

Lobowolf, on Aug 28 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

I could be out to lunch here, but I'd be pretty strongly inclined to take the other side of stacking that one up against the times 3♠ just buys you an extra undertrick (yes, even at IMPs) + and the times that the 4♥ you "let" them find goes down.

Sometimes it seems to me that half of the people on this forum play all of their bridge in the morning pairs at a retirement community.

Which sequence is more likely to lead to 4♥ down 1?
  1NT pass 2♥ dbl
  3♠  4♥
or
  1NT pass 2♥ dbl
  2♠  3♥ pass 4♥

And how often do you think that you're going to be allowed to play 2♠ with KQJx xxx Axx KQx?

[gnasher]

Phil, on Aug 28 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

The double of 2♥ shows length in the suit.  That suggests that partner has shortage there.  Honours opposite shortage are almost never as useful as honours opposite length.

All correct, however, if you are concerned about LHO raising hearts, your argument becomes moot. When pard does have three hearts - Qxx or not, we are pushing ourselves unnecessarily to 3♠.

Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. My comments about partner's possible heart holdings were a response to your rather odd suggestion that there was some benefit to holding ♥Axx rather than ♥xxx, apparently (unless I misunderstood) because you want to be able to protect partner's heart honours.

I don't, in fact, think it at all likely that partner has a heart honour. Nor do I think it particularly likely that he has three of them.

[Lobowolf]

gnasher, on Aug 28 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

Sometimes it seems to me that half of the people on this forum play all of their bridge in the morning pairs at a retirement community.

Which sequence is more likely to lead to 4♥ down 1?
  1NT pass 2♥ dbl
  3♠  4♥
or
  1NT pass 2♥ dbl
  2♠  3♥ pass 4♥

And how often do you think that you're going to be allowed to play 2♠ with KQJx xxx Axx KQx?

While the questions (rhetorical points) you raise have validity, I don't think you raise all of the relevant questions.

[Phil]

The reason I brought up xxx vs Axx was because it makes a world of difference when partner has some good two and three card holdings headed by the QJ, Kx, etc.. That probably isn't relevant here, but it does make the Axx holding more valuable when RHO bids the suit.

[kayin801]

P_Marlowe, on Aug 28 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

kayin801, on Aug 27 2009, 06:55 PM, said:

Isn't the real question that's being asked here not whether a 15 pt 4333 is a super accept or not, but whether or not to obey the LoTT right away given a known 9 card fit?

I like th LoTT, but if someone claims he is obeying the LoTT, when
he bids 3S with 4333 just tells me, that he has no idea about the
LoTT and just uses an argument to defend something, but does
not understand the argument, which means I can stop listeng.

Because there are some add. paragraphs like neg. adj.,
which mean you have to lower the number of expected total tricks
and a 4333 shape is certainly a major neg. factor.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Well, I don't think I'd always super accept on a 15 4333. But let's suppose for a second that your agreement on super acceptance was a max and 4 card support. Then, after a X, might you allow a jump with SOME mins with 4 card support, like a 4234 15 or something. Rather, would you downgrade your requirements at all in this situation?

[mike777]

wow I get a headache with 4s
1) some 4333 I superaccept
2) some 4333 I pass
3) some 4333 I do other
4) with other shape with 4s sometimes I super accept sometimes I do not....


I am exhausted......

[andy_h]

There are other purposes that 3♠ serves.

WesleyC said:

Gnasher's sample hand (where you bid 2S and the auction comes back to you at 4H) is definitely a situation where I would feel a bit sick having bid only 2S

Using the same logic, I would feel pretty sick with responder's hand if opener can bid 3♠ on min 4333. How is responder supposed to know he should raise 3♠ to 4♠ holding [Axxxx xxx QJxx x] or [Txxxx Qxx x AJxx]? You're bidding under the assumption that LHO of the opener definitely has heart length, so when it is partner that has the heart length he is in the dark whereas when you bid 2♠ you can still invite. Your sample hands of [Txxxx Qx xx Axxx] and [Txxxx K Kxx Jxxx], why cannot responder bid 3♠ or X over 3♥ to compete/invite? and if opener jumps 3♠ and his LHO bids 4♥ is it so obvious that 4♥ is making with those hands (where my auction opener bids 2♠ and LHO may give more information by bidding 3/4♥ over 2♠).
I think by bidding 2♠ with min 4333 it allows opener and responder to judge whether game is makeable and opener's LHO may make it even easier for responder to judge what the heart position is if they raise to 3♥.

WesleyC said:

Partner couldn't know whether it was right to compete over 4H because he didn't know if we bid 2S on [KQJx xxx Axx KQx] or [KJx Qxx AJx KQx]

That is true Mike, but surely if opener has the former hand and hears 2♠-3♥-3♠4♥ that this would be a clear 4♠ bid? It is true that it would be more awkward for responder if the auction went 2♠-4♥ but usually the opponents will have 9+fit to be bidding 4♥and responder may know what to do looking at the vul. I honestly have never come across the auction when LHO has raised to game immediately over 2♠. (People have agreed on the X of 2♥ shows...opening hand?)

Gnasher:

It's also possible to use other sequences too where partner has the heart length.
Which sequence is more likely to lead to 4S down 1?
1NT pass 2♥ dbl
3♠ pass 4♠
or
1NT pass 2♥ dbl
2♠ pass 3♠ pass
4♠

Although it may not be the best analogy, but in the former auction responder may need to guess if he has 3 hearts and invitational-ish values.

gnasher said:

And how often do you think that you're going to be allowed to play 2? with KQJx xxx Axx KQx?

The point of 2♠ is not only for the possibility to play in 2♠, but it allows us to convey more information if needed to be in game or not without forcing us to the 3level unnecessarily with a min 4333. LHO is not always bidding 3♥ (maybe he doesn't have enough values or maybe he has 33 in the majors as he doesn't know we have 9card spade fit) nor is LHO always going to have heart length.

[Winstonm]

Interestingly enough, the Bergen-Cohen partnership never won a major team event - their success came in pairs events. Whether this is a causative effect of their system or simply correlation is unproven.

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Aug 29 2009, 01:13 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, the Bergen-Cohen partnership never won a major team event - their success came in pairs events. Whether this is a causative effect of their system or simply correlation is unproven.

They won a Spingold.

And a Reisinger, though that's not at IMP scoring.

[WesleyC]

andy_h, on Aug 29 2009, 04:55 AM, said:

There are other purposes that 3♠ serves.

I think we're pretty much achieving the same thing regarding information exchange. Its just that we're bundling our hands together differently.

3S would be the default super-accept on most hands (maybe 2/3 of all super accepts). Some maximums with strong holding in hearts might try 2NT and a pure maximum with a small doubleton heart might bid 3H. Giving the opponents more room with hands where its less likely to matter (as we're likely to have the power to just overbid them).

Your style has more hands lumped into the 2S bid, so responder feels more inclined to raise competitively with only 5 spades. For me a hand like [Txxxx Qx xx Axxx] isn't going to compete at all after ... 2S (3H) ???. The Qh is often wasted, and opener is very likely to only have 3 spades.