[fred]

mike777, on Aug 24 2009, 02:25 AM, said:

cnszsun, on Aug 21 2009, 08:28 PM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ QJxxxx ♥   ♦ xx ♣ AK10xx ♠ K10xx ♥ xx ♦ J10xxx ♣ xx

1♠-(3♥)-ps-(4♥) AP

50-50



as east I would bid 4s....


assuming east passes as west i bid 4s.

Agree!

"Hamman's rule" (if 3NT is a possible bid then bid 3NT) is well known, but he has another lesser known rule that is applicable to this problem:

If you aren't prepared to put your b*lls on the table, you are never going to win at this game.

Both East and West should be heeding Uncle Bob's advice on this one I think

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[nigel_k]

East 80%.

The hand is worth 3♠. Yes, it's a limit raise but under pressure must include hands worth only 2♠ that have maximum values or extra distribution. This clearly qualifies. A hand at the upper end of a limit raise will bid 4♠ to take some of the strain off 3♠, but essentially they have taken up space so it's normal that the bids still available must now cover a wider range of hands.

Even after passing 3♥ I would still bid 4♠ over 4♥ with East but that is less clearcut.

I'll give West 20% as 4♠ is an option over 4♥, though much more dangerous than bidding with East.

[neilkaz]

East 75% West 25%

It really is a stretch for east to bid 3♠ with this hand which really should show a constructive raise or maybe a minimum 3 card limit raise. However, E/W are white vs red and a red jump o/c even when preemptive isn't based on trash. There's a good chance that the opps are going to try for a vul 4♥ and east may wish to encourage his pd to bid 4♠ with any excuse over 4♥.

However, having conservatively passed and hearing opener pass, east should take the sac to 4♠ as to me it seems quite clear that 4♥ is making. Vul opps are likely bidding 4♥ to make ! It is still possible that the opps do the wrong thing over 4♠.

West has opened a 10 hcp hand with lots of offense but no more defence that AK♣ assuming both cash. At this vul, I think west has to bite the bullet and bid 4♠. Once again, the opps may go wrong.

[benlessard]

If it goes

1S------(2H)------???

KTx
xx
Jxxxxx
xx

Its an easy 2S.

So after a 3H red vs W jump overcall. (It shoulndt be just cheese) why wouldnt I bid 3S with an extra trumps ? With any limit raise i would just bid 4S and hope for the best.

And west has a clear 4S too.

[Fluffy]

cherdanno, on Aug 24 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 23 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

I would prefer that my partner bids 4 spades as east than 3. Leaving 3 spades for constructive hands since you aren't getting away any space.

In US standard bidding, 4S shows a better hand than 3S. You would bid 4S with a 3-card limit raise, and 3S with a constructive raise, leaving 4H for hands really worth a game force.

but what about a weak hand with 5 spades?

I would also bid 4 spades with the 3 card limit raise, but I won't bid 3 spades on junk, I prefer pass.

[rd6789]

Cascade, on Aug 23 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

rd6789, on Aug 23 2009, 10:18 PM, said:

Well as east I am always bidding 3S -we have a 9-card fit so I want to play at the 3-level

If your minimum for 3♠ is 4 or fewer HCP then you have 3♠ and 4♠ (and 4♥) I suppose to cover all ranges.

I think this will cause inefficiencies.

Yes I agree. That's why opps bid

Now I'll bid 4S on a lot of hands where before I'd have bid a bergen. But my priority in competeive bidding is to show the fit

With a good raise to 4S I bid 4H

[skjaeran]

I don't like east's pass over 3♥ at all, strongly prefer to stretch a little and bid 3♠ here.

4♠ would be preemptive raise for me, 4♥ a high card raise.

[Jlall]

east and west both made ridiculous passes to me.

[marcD]

I actually think it is much easier to bid 3♠ as East (does not promise much) than 4♠ from West : The 4♥ raise could be sort of a blackmail hoping to induce a costly defence at these vulnerabilities

[bid_em_up]

Jlall, on Aug 24 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

east and west both made ridiculous passes to me.

Sure, but East made two of them, and West only made one.

67% East
33% West

[Cascade]

Given that 3♥ is likely to be a good hand at these colours there is a good case for 4♠ to be weak. I am not sure that many make that distinction though.

[cnszsun]

If you think east should not pass, which way do you prefer, bid 3♠ directly or pass then 4♠ if they bid 4♥?

[Double !]

There's a sort of guiding principle that I've heard from time to time that goes: "If I couldn't make the bid at the first opportunity I had, how can it be right to now make the bid second time around, especially after the opps have exchanged some more information?"

DHL

[gnasher]

Double !, on Aug 25 2009, 03:24 AM, said:

There's a sort of guiding principle that I've heard from time to time that goes:  "If I couldn't make the bid at the first opportunity I had, how can it be right to now make the bid second time around, especially after the opps have exchanged some more information?"

In general (but probably not on this sequence), it might be right for one of two reasons:

- When opponents exchange information, they also share the information with everyone else at the table. The extra information might make it right to reevaluate and bid something that you weren't worth before.

- By bidding game they've changed the stakes. Sometimes I might be sure that we can't make anything, that they can make game, that our save over that will be fairly cheap, and that an immediate advance sacrifice has little chance of pushing them overboard. In those circumstances it's right to pass in the hope that they'll stop in a partscore, then save when they bid game.

Edit: Answering the original question, with that East hand you should really want to bid over 3♥. If your methods force you to pass throughout, you should change them.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2009-August-25, 01:26

[jmcw]

Feels right to bid over 3♥. It's a toss up for me, but 4♠ seems the least of evils and who knows it might make.