[blackshoe]

bluejak, on Aug 22 2009, 09:38 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Aug 21 2009, 01:15 AM, said:

- What to do when you discover you have revoked. -Call the director.

Well, maybe.

Not everyone will follow this advice. The basic ethics of bridge do not require you to point out your own revokes. So long as you do not do anything positive to conceal them, like revoking again, mixing your cards quickly, and so on, you do not have to tell anyone.

However, many people have personal ethics that mean they will tell the opponents and the TD. Note that 'personal ethics' or 'active ethics' are optional: you have no comeback if an opponent fails to point out his own revoke.

Good point, I should have made it myself.

[bluejak]

jillybean, on Aug 23 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

bluejak, on Aug 22 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

jillybean, on Aug 19 2009, 05:26 PM, said:

Funny stop card incident, I used the stop card, made my bid, LHO looks at the bid, sits back and says, "ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now".

That is not funny. It is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the intent of the regulations. At the least it is offensive: at the most it is unethical.

Offensive, unethical? No, simply unaware of the correct procedure.

I consider this very unlikely.

Yes, it could be, and if a TD was asked to rule he would investigate before deciding, naturally. But my experience of this, which has happened a number of times over the years, is that people who do it are being somewhat bloody-minded, not ignorant.

[jillybean]

bluejak, on Aug 23 2009, 02:41 PM, said:

jillybean, on Aug 23 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

bluejak, on Aug 22 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

jillybean, on Aug 19 2009, 05:26 PM, said:

Funny stop card incident, I used the stop card, made my bid, LHO looks at the bid, sits back and says, "ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now".

That is not funny. It is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the intent of the regulations. At the least it is offensive: at the most it is unethical.

Offensive, unethical? No, simply unaware of the correct procedure.

I consider this very unlikely.

Yes, it could be, and if a TD was asked to rule he would investigate before deciding, naturally. But my experience of this, which has happened a number of times over the years, is that people who do it are being somewhat bloody-minded, not ignorant.

I was at the table and my discinct impression was that the player had no idea the comment was inappropriate.
I'm surprised you think this is very unlikely,given a number of players have little knowledge of the laws.

[bluejak]

Experience.

The one Law that people know in my clubs is 25A. Why? Because it keeps happening.

Similarly, there are maybe 30 Stop bids an evening, and after each one an opponent thinks [apparently]. Does the one and only person who, instead of apparently thinking, says "One, two, three ..." in a silly falsetto voice really think this is the way to do it?

[jillybean]

And is it also this bloody-mindedness why you think people bid on immediately after the stop card?

[bluejak]

No, not really. Lots of people get it wrong by bidding immediately, so they do not learn from each other that it is wrong. But treating it with disdain as mentioned earlier is rare enough to be known to be wrong.

[jillybean]

You could be right but I think your analogy between a player who says “"ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now" and the player who says "One, two, three ..." in a silly falsetto voice” is rather a stretch.

[blackshoe]

I can imagine some players in the local area here not knowing the skip bid regulation, and in particular not knowing they're not supposed to give away the fact (when it is a fact) that they don't have anything to think about. I cannot imagine one making a comment like the one Jilly reported. That said, if such a comment was made, I would try to find out why it was made, and not come down on the player concerned unless I became convinced that he knew better. Of course, if after that he does it again...

[Sven Pran]

Frankly I think there is something rotten with a regulation that places the burden and responsibility for measuring out the 10 seconds delay on the player that must wait instead of on the player that announces "stop".

The skip-bidder's LHO should have his 10 seconds for consideration without being distracted by also having to observe the timing.

It is the player that announced "stop" who also should announce "continue" (or words to that effect, or take back the stop card) when he considers the time is out.

That is how we do it in Norway, and this procedure makes the problems I notice being discussed in this thread virtually non-existing.

regards Sven

PS.: LHO is allowed to call immediately once "continue" is announced, but he is not considered creating UI if he still uses his full 10 seconds when "continue" is announced before (approximately) 10 seconds have expired. I have never experienced that particular issue to cause any problem.

[Cyberyeti]

Sven Pran, on Aug 24 2009, 04:15 AM, said:

Frankly I think there is something rotten with a regulation that places the burden and responsibility for measuring out the 10 seconds delay on the player that must wait instead of on the player that announces "stop".

The skip-bidder's LHO should have his 10 seconds for consideration without being distracted by also having to observe the timing.

It is the player that announced "stop" who also should announce "continue" (or words to that effect, or take back the stop card) when he considers the time is out.

That is how se do it in Norway, and this procedure makes the problems I notice being discussed in this thread virtually non-existing.

regards Sven

PS.: LHO is allowed to call immediately once "continue" is annouonced, but he is not considered creating UI if he still uses his full 10 seconds when "continue" is announced before (approximately) 10 seconds have expired.  I have never experienced that particular issue to cause any problem.

Not heard of this before, but good idea, there are some auctions like the acol 2C(big)-2D(neg)-3N(25-26 bal) where nobody in their right mind is ever going to intervene having not done so first time so being told you don't have to wait would speed things up.

I must admit I'm sometimes guilty of passing fast in these auctions if the stop card is removed early, but confident I've given no meaningful UI by doing so.

[jeremy69]

I think there is a number of regulations that have been in force over a number of years, are perfectly simple, are understood by the vast majority of players but there is quite often a lack of adherence to them and the stop procedure is a good example of this. Some players play their game in the club with the express intention of finishing quickly to get to the bar so a couple of stops represents 20 seconds drinking time. Another set believe that they should interpret the stop procedure so that in a sequence such as 1NT No STOP 3NT it is not necessary to stop so they don't and probably 99.2% of the time it makes little difference. If someone does not stop and it is their first game of duplicate I would not dream of fining them but I would explain pleasantly what the problem is but to the serial offender who will not give two brain cells to being ethical I will show little sympathy. He or she will, of course, complain that their opponents are being barrack room lawyers, spoiling the game etc but in truth it is them who by their deliberately careless attitude are causing unnecessary vexation to many! (I feel better for that!).

[Cyberyeti]

jeremy69, on Aug 24 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

I think there is a number of regulations that have been in force over a number of years, are perfectly simple, are understood by the vast majority of players but there is quite often a lack of adherence to them and the stop procedure is a good example of this. Some players play their game in the club with the express intention of finishing quickly to get to the bar so a couple of stops represents 20 seconds drinking time. Another set believe that they should interpret the stop procedure so that in a sequence such as 1NT No STOP 3NT it is not necessary to stop so they don't and probably 99.2% of the time it makes little difference. If someone does not stop and it is their first game of duplicate I would not dream of fining them but I would explain pleasantly what the problem is but to the serial offender who will not give two brain cells to being ethical I will show little sympathy. He or she will, of course, complain that their opponents are being barrack room lawyers, spoiling the game etc but in truth it is them who by their deliberately careless attitude are causing unnecessary vexation to many! (I feel better for that!).

I'm curious, why is 1N - 3N without a stop offender treated as innocent but you'd fine the fast passer afterwards. On some of those occasions I've not noticed a stop bid has been made when no stop cards have been pulled and passed immediately.

Indeed I would have some sympathy with somebody who bid insufficiently over an unannounced stop thinking the bid was a level lower, but I'm sure the law has none.

At the crass level, if you wanted to cheat, you could ascribe minisculely different point counts to 1N-4N and 1N-stop 4N, and if there is no penalty for failure to stop, you're never going to get called on this.

[cherdanno]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

[gordontd]

cherdanno, on Aug 24 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I do, and at least two of them post here.

[jillybean]

gordontd, on Aug 24 2009, 10:07 AM, said:

cherdanno, on Aug 24 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I do, and at least two of them post here.

I don't think I've seen the stop card used in that auction.

[mjj29]

cherdanno, on Aug 24 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I am very careful to pause where required. Sometimes I even manage to do so without my hand hovering over the pass cards

[awm]

I used to pause ten seconds for skip bids. A funny situation at nationals a couple years back convinced me to stop doing this.

The situation was as follows. After partner passed, my RHO opened 3♥ (stop card on the table). I had a pretty lousy hand and did not really have anything to think about. But since a skip bid was made, I hesitated the required ten seconds (trying my best to look like I was thinking) before passing. LHO raised to 4♥ and all passed.

In order to make 4♥, declarer had to obtain a trick from the spade suit. The position was:

---

Declarer lead the spade nine, I played low in tempo and partner won the queen. Partner lead a minor suit which declarer ruffed, and declarer played a low spade to which I again played small in tempo.

Now declarer called for the king. The dummy was convinced that this was the wrong play and that the contract would now fail, but of course it was the winning line.

After the hand, declarer was asked why he played the king of spades on the second round. His answer was: "You thought so long over 3♥ that I was sure you must have some cards. You hadn't shown up with much, so I played you for the spade ace."

Hmm. Since then I have been careful to hesitate only 7-8 seconds over skip bids... just like (apparently) almost everyone else.

[shyams]

I have some thoughts on the Stop card similar to jillybean & cherdanno.

The problems are in situations (some examples below):
A. Pass - (1NT) - Pass - (2C); Pass - (2D) - Pass - "Stop" (3NT) ... to what purpose?
B. (1M) - Pass - (1NT forc) - Pass; (2x) - pass - (2M/4M) ... If 4M, a Stop card is brandished (assume 4M shows game values) but the next player is least likely to act. Obviously the 2M (2-cards + 6-9 HCP) does not need "Stop", yet the 2M bid is more likely to require the person time to think.
C. (Opps passing) 1M - 2C(GF); 2x - 2M; 3Y - 3Z (both cue); "Stop" 4NT ... helps opponents or partner?
D. Purely hypothetical example (though I suspect may have happened to someone):
(Opps passing) "Stop" 2NT - 3C; 3D - (forgets stop card) 4NT; all pass. Declarer makes 12 tricks cold, then tells partner
"I thought you bid 3NT. Why didn't you put the Stop card?".
E. Time is relative (at least, to me). When I have nothing to think, 5-6 seconds feels like 10 seconds. When I have a decision to make, 10 seconds feels like 5-6!

Until today I have been in the "interpret the stop procedure" camp. I rarely pull out the STOP card in 1NT - 3NT sequences; or in 1NT - 2C - 2any - 3NT sequences. If I was a defender in A) above, I'd even occasionally pass in <10 seconds (not always). Having read other people's posts, I may change my attitude for the sake of compliance with the law but I am yet to be convinced.

The people who post here are experts and highly ethical people; I'd never worry about your usage of Stop cards. It's just that not every player I encounter in clubs is as ethical and knowledgeable as you lot.

PS: I'd really like to know what to do if D. above ever happened at my table. Do I call the Director and ask him to take action (which could be severe)?

[skjaeran]

jillybean, on Aug 24 2009, 08:03 PM, said:

gordontd, on Aug 24 2009, 10:07 AM, said:

cherdanno, on Aug 24 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I do, and at least two of them post here.

I don't think I've seen the stop card used in that auction.

I've often seen the stopcard used in that auction. I've even seen partner need more than the standard 10 second pause before passing too. And having the TD called after I led a spade from a doubleton with 2443 distribution and a couple of stray jacks.

Btw, the TD allowed the lead, a ruling which was upheld by the AC.

[bluejak]

jillybean, on Aug 24 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

gordontd, on Aug 24 2009, 10:07 AM, said:

cherdanno, on Aug 24 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I do, and at least two of them post here.

I don't think I've seen the stop card used in that auction.

May I assume you are in North America?

While a lot of players in England err by taking the Stop card away very quickly, and also by not waiting ten seconds when it is withdrawn quickly, most players routinely produce the Stop card in any auction with a jump. So In England/Wales I would expect at least 90% of players to produce a Stop card in the auction 1NT p 3NT. The advantage of getting into a good habit is it makes it easy.



I also remember acting as a cuddly [Appeals Adviser] back when I used to play in the Tollemache [nowadays I am always at the Fall Nationals]. The bidding went 1NT pass Stop 3NT ten second or so delay Pass Pass Pass and the opening leader fished out the ♠K from Kx!!!! It was ruled back on the basis that a ten second pause was a BIT because a lot of people do not bother.

I told them to appeal and was fairly annoyed when they lost. The trouble is that even with players who follow the rules generally in England most people's pause over a Stop bid, and most people's keeping the card out, is more like five or six seconds than ten.