[Cascade]

ONEferBRID, on Aug 19 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

Cascade, on Aug 18 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Aug 19 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

1S  - 1NTF
2C* - 2D ( expected )
2H ( should describe this hand )
_____________________
* 2C could be as few as 3 cards

... and this is standard?

What part didn't you like?
....the 2C rebid after a forcing 1NT ?
( I agree w/Peachy that 2C is "less likely to be passed out" )

1. The problem didn't involve a forcing 1NT. I didn't notice the "F" in your post earlier. So I didn't expect 2♣ showing three to be standard.

2. I would expect standard would bid 2♥ rather than 2♣.

3. 2♣ won't produce 2♦ all of the time and some other continuations will be awkward e.g. 2♠, which maybe more frequent, preference possibly false. Then if you take another move it will be 3♥ and then if partner dislikes your majors you have forced to the four-level.

4. I am not so sure that 2♣ is less likely to be passed out. Over 2♥ at least there is a temptation of a 10 trick game whereas over 2♣ with clubs and distribution not only is the game an extra trick but we might not even have a real fit. Both are factors that will dissuade us from bidding.

[hrothgar]

This is an ugly problem

Looking at my hand, I have a strong expectation that partner is sitting on a six+ card diamond suit without enough strength to bid an immediate 2♦.

If we have a fit, its probably either a 5-2 spade fit or a 4-3 fit in either hearts or clubs.

I expect that I am going to get labelled a wimp, however, I am strogly tempted to bid 2♣ and then PASS the expected 2♦ rebid. I'm willing to gamble that partner has seven diamonds and that his hand is worth a lot more in Diamonds than in some other suit.

If partner surprises me by bidding 2♥ or 2♠, life is easy.
The big risk here is that partner might pass 2♣ and 5♣ might roll home.

[gordontd]

peachy, on Aug 18 2009, 06:49 AM, said:

2C will be unlikely to be passed if pd is weak while 2H might be passed with hands where 4H is cold. Really hate not showing hearts but hate even more JS in hearts.

Your concern about missing the heart game leads you to start by suppressing the heart suit? It sounds like the worse of both worlds.

[Fluffy]

I am completelly sure that if partner bids 2♣ then any number of hearts I will think that he has 5314 or 5305, no other shape is possible.

[oxyde]

2♥

Partner will raise with 8HCP 4 cards or any 5 card.
Good 5 cards fit go straight to game.


The main issue with bidding 3♥ is that it is closing to many doors.
- it excludes my best 4 card suit : ♣ which could lead to a slam facing not that much (Kx Qx xxxx Kxxxx makes easy 6♣, so any high card less would lead to 5♣).

- it also excludes ♦, which could be played if partner has a strong misfit and long ♦ : I would pass a 3♦ bid. Such a hand is highly possible (see hrothgar comment)
In such a case 3♥ leads you to an horrible penalty

[hrothgar]

Silly question:

Assume that you held your 5=4=0=4 hand
Partner opened 2♦ showing a standard Weak 2
Moreover, you can be pretty sure that partner doesn't have three Spades

Would everyone start bidding hoping and praying that partner has a 4 card heart suit?

This hand screams misfit. Yes, we have a lot of values, but thats not going to be much help if partner lays down a 1=3=7=2 or some such

Personally, I think that the 2♥ response is shooting at a pretty small target. yes, this will pay of veyr well if partner can raise hearts. Balanced against this, I think that there is a very real chance that 2♦ is our last chance at a plus...

[mike777]

Cascade, on Aug 17 2009, 04:06 PM, said:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> EW </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </th> <td> AQJ82 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> KJT8 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td>  </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> AQ87 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

West  North East  South

 -     -     -     1♠
 Pass  1NT   Pass  ?</span>

If your solution involves bidding 2♥ then what is a minimum hand for partner that would raise 2♥ with four trumps?  with five trumps?

2h and then 3c, we may miss a nv game.


3h if we were vul...


side note I expect pard to raise over 2h with almost any hand and heart support after 1s=1nt=2h

[benlessard]

3H, I like the T of H, and the AQJ of spades. And ill pass 3Nt if partner bid it.

[fromageGB]

Cascade, on Aug 18 2009, 11:58 PM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Aug 19 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

1S  - 1NTF
2C* - 2D ( expected )
2H ( should describe this hand )
_____________________
* 2C could be as few as 3 cards

... and this is standard?

I believe it is pretty common to bid 2♣ as the better minor that may be 3 card. Denying gadgets, I would say it is standard. So when partner makes a weak takeout to diamonds, 2♥ seems a perfect description of the shape and strength.

Having not bid hearts initially is a problem, as will partner take you for 5404, or will he take you for maybe 5314 and asking for a guard in hearts to bid NT? If so, it may not achieve its intended aim, unfortunately, but there is a good chance partner will understand you hate diamonds and want to play elsewhere.

Yes, if he bids 2♦, I want to bid 2♣. Bit if he was going to pass 2♣ I want to bid 3♥ :-)

[Winstonm]

2/1 was not stipulated so I attack this problem from the point of view that 1N shows 6-9 or maybe a bad 10. If so, a practical rule of thumb would be to rule out slam as a very low probability event even if it could be successfully bid. Getting to the best game takes priority now.

Due to that, I do not want to take any risks on missing a game and will force the issue with 3H - don't really like it but like every other bid less.

[MarkDean]

I would bid 2♥, but I basically always play 2/1, so I could be convinced the nuances of standard could make other calls more attractive.

I would expect partner to basically never pass with five hearts, and if he passes with 4, we might have missed a good game, but he might have a bad hand with diamond wastage, so we might survive.

If partner bids 2♠, I will bid 3♣ next.

[andy_h]

2♥, then 3♣ when partner bids 2♠ false preference