[bluejak]

Do you actually play in a club?

I cannot believe you do not want to discourage a player with 7 good trumps and the ace of hearts from playing them out very slowly, thinking between each card.

Contested claims are very rare, and not encouraging claims is very bad for the game because of all the uncontested ones.

[bluejak]

Quote

I believe the diagram given must be wrong, West should have a diamond fewer and a heart more (otherwise I can't construct a possible legal line of play to get to the end position David gives).

No doubt I am wrong. The hand diagram was constructed from memory.

The TD considered that a claim had occurred since declarer had suggested play shoud be curtailed.

He felt that since the claim statement was said to be wrong by the player that there was no reason to consider following it.

The TD considered that there were only two normal lines of play - attempting to set up the clubs and cross-ruffing - and since both succeeded he allowed the claim.

The TD did not consider asking claimer for a new statement, especially since he had seen the defenders' cards. But it is an interesting idea.

[axman]

bluejak, on Aug 18 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

Do you actually play in a club?

I cannot believe you do not want to discourage a player with 7 good trumps and the ace of hearts from playing them out very slowly, thinking between each card.

Contested claims are very rare, and not encouraging claims is very bad for the game because of all the uncontested ones.

There is a difference between playing out a hand and being uduly slow doing it.

When such things happen sumon the TD. After obtaining the facts the TD should should quote the relevant L74 and state that because there was nothing to think about what has happened is an example of unduly slow play which is likely to iritate the opponents and otherwise improperly delay the game- and should be carefully avoided. In this instance the penalty is .1 matchpoint. Ask if they understand the reason for the penalty and caution that in the future the penalty will be large.

As for club bridge, there are a great number of patrons that are offended when an opponent claims, even to the point of being offensive and wasting huge amounts of time. They came to play the cards, and that means all 52 of them.

As for contested claims being rare. Well that is what should be due for claims that have no doubtful point. But the truth is that a large proportion of claims are faulty and the reason they are not disputed is that it is an intimidating situation for the other side to issue a protest. I personally witnessed a bum contested claim ruling favoring Helgemo in the Vanderbilt that should have been appealed but wasn't because expending political capital was too expensive. [Especially with the proclivity of rulings that give unearned tricks to the faulty claim.]

[McBruce]

axman, on Aug 19 2009, 07:59 AM, said:

As for club bridge, there are a great number of patrons that are offended when an opponent claims, even to the point of being offensive and wasting huge amounts of time. They came to play the cards, and that means all 52 of them.

These players are unrealistic. You don't have any 'right' to play all 52 cards, just as you don't have any 'right' to play all the hands--passouts are valid results. When it gets to the point where they are offensive and wasting huge amounts of time, the TD should step in and give the non-claimers some serious warnings and penalties.

In my experience, when the opponents are angry about a claim, it is because the claimer has decided the hand is an open book and his play is so obvious it needs no explanation. The opponents are not contesting the claim so much as they are contesting the poor manners and the false air of superiority of the claimer. I have seen good players silently fold up their cards, played and unplayed, and put them into the slot unseen -- against opponents they know to be capable of forgetting that the ace of trumps is out. I have seen players claim by showing their cards for 0.2 seconds, then obnoxiously berate the opponents when they don't get it. This sort of thing needs to be dealt with firmly: the TD needs to find out who's really causing trouble here.

As declarer, I have developed the habit of claiming (at least when there are more than 3 cards remaining) by facing my cards in such a way that the line of play I expect to take is "left-to-right." This takes 5 extra seconds but the act of sorting the cards forces me to have a second run-through before I announce that I am claiming. It's a good habit to get into. Whenever I am forced to rule against a claim because the statement doesn't make the intended line of play obvious (and one normal line fails), I suggest it to the claimer for next time.

[Cyberyeti]

bluejak, on Aug 18 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

Do you actually play in a club?

I cannot believe you do not want to discourage a player with 7 good trumps and the ace of hearts from playing them out very slowly, thinking between each card.

Contested claims are very rare, and not encouraging claims is very bad for the game because of all the uncontested ones.

Smacks head into desk.

I was playing as a visitor in a club recently, partner claimed. Defender said play it, partner pointed out he wasn't allowed to having claimed, director was called and director said "just play it, remember where you are".

The kicker was that he claimed again 2 or 3 tricks later when it was truly obvious and the opponents conceded. Only when we tried to reconstruct the play in the car later did we realise that the dummy full of winners was a card short.

As a matter of philosophy, I feel people should be encouraged to claim, so should not be judged too severely in cases of ambiguity, I think there should be a bending over backwards to try to duplicate the result that would have occurred had the hand been played out. Therefore I think you should be allowed to notice when somebody shows out and your suit no longer cashes etc.

[blackshoe]

Cyberyeti, on Aug 19 2009, 03:12 PM, said:

director said "just play it, remember where you are".

"I thought I was in a place where the laws of bridge are followed. I guess I was mistaken."

[bluejak]

I was suggestng encouraging claiming, not bullying players into claiming.

[blackshoe]

Who said anything about bullying anyone?

[Cyberyeti]

blackshoe, on Aug 19 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

Cyberyeti, on Aug 19 2009, 03:12 PM, said:

director said "just play it, remember where you are".

"I thought I was in a place where the laws of bridge are followed. I guess I was mistaken."

I thought that, but didn't say it. No need to wind up another director, particularly as we'd scored up 16 of the 28 boards in a multiple teams and were +87 by then ...

[blackshoe]

That's why I used that smily, cyber. I wouldn't actually say it, either. Well, I might comment along those lines in passing on my way out the door. Particularly as I wouldn't likely be coming back.

[FrancesHinden]

axman, on Aug 19 2009, 04:59 PM, said:

As for club bridge, there are a great number of patrons that are offended when an opponent claims, even to the point of being offensive and wasting huge amounts of time. They came to play the cards, and that means all 52 of them.

This is so true.

Quote

But the truth is that a large proportion of claims are faulty and the reason they are not disputed is that it is an intimidating situation for the other side to issue a protest.

I agree that a large number of claims are faulty (though I don't think it is a large proportion of total claims, I think you forget the many claims with 2-3 tricks left when one hand is high). However, the reason they aren't disputed is not because of intimidation but because they work in practice. Most faulty claims ignore what might happen if a suit breaks very badly. Usually that doesn't happen so the claim is 'valid' for the actual layout.

[bluejak]

blackshoe, on Aug 20 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

Who said anything about bullying anyone?

Quote

When such things happen sumon the TD. After obtaining the facts the TD should should quote the relevant L74 and state that because there was nothing to think about what has happened is an example of unduly slow play which is likely to iritate the opponents and otherwise improperly delay the game- and should be carefully avoided. In this instance the penalty is .1 matchpoint. Ask if they understand the reason for the penalty and caution that in the future the penalty will be large.

[TMorris]

I was playing in the EBU Men's Pairs about 4 years ago in a 1NT contract. The opponents took the first 6 tricks and (not remembering how many diamonds were left as I couldn't do anything about the opponents cashing them) I was waiting for the next card to be played. When it was played I claimed. I was then told off by the pro for not claiming earlier immediately after trick 6 (his partner had played out the diamonds and though for 30 seconds or so before playing the next card). We finished the board and the round ahead of the room.

As you may gather it's something I have not forgotten (or forgiven).

I've also. not long after starting to play, had situations in a local green pointed event where a much better player claims, briefly shows their cards and then puts them away and we didn't know enough to call the director. Each of us couldn't see a trick separately but together we had one. Claiming can involve an element of bullying/cheating by more experienced players.

The requirement to claim is fine. The attitude of some people about claims is not.

[blackshoe]

What "requirement to claim"? There no such thing in the laws. Nor in any regulation of which I'm aware. One is certainly permitted to claim, and there are those who believe that should be done as early as possible, but that belief, even by experts, does not make it law.

[bluejak]

There is an effective requirement to claim if you know all the rest of the tricks are yours [Law 74B4] and a claim is suitable.

But certainly there is never a requirement for anyone to claim who has any difficulty in claiming.

Much depends on exactly what is said: if you really might have claimed earlier and an opponent mentions it in a reasonably friendly way, that is fair enough: if he is nasty about it call the TD and say that he is upsetting you.

Similarly some people do claim without showing their hands and other intimidating ways. Be brave! Do what I sometimes do, say something like "Could you explain that again" even though he did not explain it first time!

Of course the attitude of some players is what is wrong with the game whether in relation to claims or anything else.

[blackshoe]

Can't disagree with that, David.

Heh. Once, I claimed at trick 12. After we settled that, one of my opponents (a very good player) asked me, conversationally, why I didn't claim at trick 9. I told him "because I didn't see it until trick 12".