[bluejak]

More from the same session.

Scoring: S Pairs {MP}

------------P---P
-1NT-Dbl-2♥-3♣
---P--3NT-P---P
---P

---

1NT was announced as 12-14. 2♥ was a transfer [shown on the CC] but West forgot and did not alert.

After the hand North said he bid 3NT on fairly minimal values because of his good hearts, but would have passed 3♣ if he had known East had spades. 3NT went off on a spade lead.

Well?

[skjaeran]

I assume the double just showed cards here.

But do you know if NS play some kind of lebensohl here, where south can distinguish between a purely competitive hand and an invite with clubs?

[bluejak]

I do not know for certain, but I do not think these were top players. If not, we can safely assume that the double showed 15+, possibly less with an excellent lead, and there will be no Lebensohl agreement.

[helene_t]

I think there is a decent chance that North would actually have passed given correct explanation. So I would adjust.

Maybe South would have passed since he could show a weaker hand by passing first and bidding 3♣ over the transfer completion. Then 2♥ would probably have been passed out. So maybe it should be adjusted to 2♥ by E rather than 3♣ by S. But 2♥ will probably be off only one or two while 3♣ will make so 3♣ is better for NS. So 3♣ it is.

[Fluffy]

considering to adjusti to 2♥ because south was missinformed?, he has the same trash in both majors, this looks very wrong to me, are you sure?

[helene_t]

Yeah, over a transfer S can just pass as he gets a second chance and may be a little light for a direct 3♣

[Fluffy]

I understand, thank you

[JoAnneM]

I personally don't know anyone who doesn't play systems on over 1nt-x. Without the alert this is one of the few times I would have asked. No Adjustment.

[helene_t]

You live in a strong-notrump land, JoAnne. That makes a difference. Natural escapes are common here.

[awm]

I agree with adjusting to 3♣. North's claim about bidding 3NT seems reasonable (partner is likely to provide some help in spades when opponents suit is hearts) and it's also true that south has more options over a transfer and might be able to better show his or her hand.

[cherdanno]

JoAnneM, on Aug 15 2009, 03:31 PM, said:

I personally don't know anyone who doesn't play systems on over 1nt-x. Without the alert this is one of the few times I would have asked. No Adjustment.

How many do you know who play weak NT?

[bluejak]

JoAnneM, on Aug 15 2009, 09:31 PM, said:

I personally don't know anyone who doesn't play systems on over 1nt-x.  Without the alert this is one of the few times I would have asked.

Systems on is extremely rare over here.

[NickRW]

bluejak, on Aug 16 2009, 01:27 AM, said:

JoAnneM, on Aug 15 2009, 09:31 PM, said:

I personally don't know anyone who doesn't play systems on over 1nt-x.  Without the alert this is one of the few times I would have asked.

Systems on is extremely rare over here.

Or, perhaps a little more accurately, quite a lot have a system on after the double - it just isn't the same one as if there hadn't been the double

Nick

[bluejak]

'Systems on' means the same system is used as without the double.

[skjaeran]

Without lebensohl in the arsenal, I agree 100% with Helene's reasoning. With correct information, south has the option to pass with a purely competitive hand and come back with 3♣. While with MI 3♣ becomes more wide ranging.

I'm still a little doubtful about the 3NT bid by north. But any doubtful points are ruled in favour of the non-offending side. So 3♣ it is.

[MFA]

Could be nice to know if NS had agreement about lebensohl etc.

Back to 3♣, or if not in the generous mood then a weighted score between 3NT and 3♣.

[bluejak]

MFA, on Aug 17 2009, 08:49 PM, said:

Could be nice to know if NS had agreement about lebensohl etc.

Very unlikely. I have passed on all the facts the TD told me, and surely he would have been told and thus would have told me if they were playing Lebensohl.

[shintaro]

cherdanno, on Aug 15 2009, 06:35 PM, said:

How many do you know who play weak NT?

quite a shedload here in UK actually

[bluejak]

MFA, on Aug 17 2009, 08:49 PM, said:

... or if not in the generous mood then a weighted score between 3NT and 3♣.

This is what the TD ruled: she felt the argument had merit, but was not sure that North would not just bid 3NT anyway. I believe the percentage for 3♣ was greater than that of 3NT - perhaps 70/30 or 65/35.