[P_Marlowe]

barmar, on Aug 14 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

Just to muddy things further, the actual auction we had was:

1♣ 1♠
2♣ 3♠

My partner, who is usually much more reliable than this, has gotten it into his head that 3♠ is forcing, but I'm certain it's only invitational.  I think that may have been true 40 years ago, but not these days.  But I can't find any concrete documentation of this.  None of the bridge bidding web sites I could find seem to cover this basic auction, and the books in my library are all for intermediate/advanced players, so they don't cover much of Bridge Bidding 101.

Conversely, he was also under the impression that

1♣ 1♠
3♣ 3♠

is passable.  As I understand it, once opener jump rebids, the only way to stop short of 3NT is for responder to pass.

I feel really dumb asking about this here rather than the B/I forum, but can someone tell me I'm not crazy?

#1 it depends, if you happen to play WJS, than 3S is forcing, in the context of SJS 3S is inv.
#2 forcing

[kenrexford]

Cascade, on Aug 14 2009, 11:15 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Aug 15 2009, 09:44 AM, said:

General Principles thing.

If Opener rebids 3♣, Responder realizes that his hand is huge and bids it eventually.  If Opener only rebids 2♣, don't find it.

The slam turns on a 3-2 clubs split, with the heart 10 and the Jx of hearts being more important for slam than expected.  So, it's a very tight one.  So, whichever opener does -- slight overbid or slight underbid, makes all the difference, IMO.

Isn't slam just a little better than 3=2 clubs. If you discover clubs are 4=1 you have some chance of bringing in the spades in time.

true

[Winstonm]

quiddity, on Aug 14 2009, 05:13 PM, said:

barmar, on Aug 14 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣?

I would start the same way, and I think the slam can be found:

1♣ 1♠
2♣ 2♦
2N 3♠
3N 4♣
...

The CK is a huge card.

I think you are smoking too much crack. East would bid the same way with: x, Axx, KQx, Q9xxxx.

Why would you want to move past 3N now?

[BFone]

barmar, on Aug 14 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

---

Assume you're playing Standard American or 2/1 with the common gadgets in use in ACBL-land.

1. If you play strong jump shifts (Soloway style), do you consider West's hand appropriate? My partner didn't, he downgraded the doubleton Jack.

2. Assuming West only bids 1♠ (either you're not playing SJS, or he's decided it's not good enough), do you rebid 2♣ or 3♣ with the East hand? I took the low road, because I didn't like shortness in partner's suit, and my suit quality was so-so.

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣? How do you think the auction should proceed from there? We ended up in 3NT making 6 (a ♥ was led, and the ♣ broke, so it was easy).

1♣ -1♠,
2♣ -2♦ (New Minor suit Force),
2♥(force to show good hand, partner already showed no 4 cards H) - 3♣(Jx is minimum in expert bidding),
3♦(further force to show better hand) - 3S♠ (show slam interests)
3NT (sign-off) - 4♠ (further slam interests plus good ♠ suit)
4NT (waiting, no ♠ fit) - 5♣ (showed enough, but not pass 4NT for slam hope)
6♣ (gamble because 4NT was not passed)

[quiddity]

barmar, on Aug 14 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

quiddity, on Aug 14 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

barmar, on Aug 14 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣?

I would start the same way, and I think the slam can be found:

1♣ 1♠
2♣ 2♦
2N 3♠
3N 4♣
...

The CK is a huge card.

Isn't 2NT an underbid in that auction?

You may be right. I was playing a set of responses in which a jump to 3N showed a stopper with 4 cards in the 3rd suit, and all other hands with stoppers were shown with 2NT. This makes it impossible for the 11 point hand to stop in 2N.

I don't know how costly that is. With a rebiddable minor and all suits stopped, maybe it's not such a disaster to get to some 23 and 24-point 3NTs; and meanwhile it is clear that the jump to 3N can lead to some awkward guesses.

[quiddity]

Winstonm, on Aug 15 2009, 09:08 AM, said:

I think you are smoking too much crack. East would bid the same way with: x, Axx, KQx, Q9xxxx.

Why would you want to move past 3N now?

Somehow I find a way to live with myself.

[Winstonm]

quiddity, on Aug 15 2009, 07:52 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Aug 15 2009, 09:08 AM, said:

I think you are smoking too much crack.  East would bid the same way with: x, Axx, KQx, Q9xxxx.

Why would you want to move past 3N now?

Somehow I find a way to live with myself.

Then obviously you are not taking bridge seriously enough.

[peachy]

BFone, on Aug 15 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

1♣ -1♠,
2♣ -2♦ (New Minor suit Force),
2♥(force to show good hand, partner already showed no 4 cards H) - 3♣(Jx is minimum in expert bidding),
3♦(further force to show better hand) - 3S♠ (show slam interests)
3NT (sign-off) - 4♠ (further slam interests plus good ♠ suit)
4NT (waiting, no ♠ fit) - 5♣ (showed enough, but not pass 4NT for slam hope)
6♣ (gamble because 4NT was not passed)

Just curious about something. 1C-1S-2C-2D, you say it is NMF and I agree. Next you suggest opener should bid bid 2H and you said: (force to show good hand, partner already showed no 4 cards H)

When did partner deny 4 card hearts?
When playing NMF, 1C-1S-2C-2H is natural and not forcing.
When playing NMF, 1C-1S-2C-3H is typically agreed to show 5-5 majors and can be agreed to be either forcing, invitational, or weak; I like it invitational because forcing hands can always go through NMF and then bid hearts [forcing] even if opener did not bid 2H. So using NMF can indeed have a 4-card heart suit that has not yet been shown.

[barmar]

peachy, on Aug 16 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

Just curious about something. 1C-1S-2C-2D, you say it is NMF and I agree. Next you suggest opener should bid bid 2H and you said: (force to show good hand, partner already showed no 4 cards H)

When did partner deny 4 card hearts?
When playing NMF, 1C-1S-2C-2H is natural and not forcing.
When playing NMF, 1C-1S-2C-3H is typically agreed to show 5-5 majors and can be agreed to be either forcing, invitational, or weak; I like it invitational because forcing hands can always go through NMF and then bid hearts [forcing] even if opener did not bid 2H. So using NMF can indeed have a 4-card heart suit that has not yet been shown.

A new suit by an unpassed responder is always forcing. The difference between 1C-1S-2C-2D and 1C-1S-2C-2H is that a new minor is likely to be a fake suit (temporizing), but a new major is practically guaranteed to be natural.