[jillybean]

How is this for service.

I played in McBruces game tonight and when I got home there was a PBN file with all boards waiting in my email. In addition, the complete results and hand records posted on the net.

I’ll be back at your games as often as I can – thanks!
You have my vote for #1 and most responsive TD


Now all Ive got to do is fix my bridge game.....

[JoAnneM]

We are a non-profit game, charge $4 per game, and do not charge extra for special games - we absorb the extra cost. We use a playing director so do not have hand records. Even when we have a stac game the hand records rarely are taken by more than about 30% of the players.

We make enough money to provide coffee and cookies, pay our expenses, including a small director stipend, insurance, and a big Christmas party every year which includes free catered lunch. (Rent is $1.5 per person)

Our problem now is that the Senior Center is offering free non-ACBL bridge on one of our game days and several of our C players have abandoned us because we "charge too much".

If we started using hand records we would have to have a non-playing director, which would drop half a table from our game and would require one of us to sit there very bored for 3 1/2 hours twice a week. Of course I could be reading my new Kindle.

I just can't see the point. We do post the results and travelers online.

[jillybean]

JoAnneM, on Aug 15 2009, 08:49 AM, said:

I just can't see the point.   We do post the results and travelers online.

I lwant to improve, I dont remember the hands so without the handrecords it is impossible for me to review any of the play.

Just a few minutes ago I was loading last night hands to a teaching table, recreating the auctions, replaying the hands. This allows me to see where I messed up, where I could have made an overtrick. Thanks Bruce, I think this is a powerful tool.

If you are already running your games for a minimal fee you probably dont want to stop playing and provide hand records for players, I doubt anyone would expect you to either. OTOH if you are charging full price for a game, want to provide the best possible experience for your players this is something you can and I think should be offering.
Post it, dont print it $0 supply cost.

I'll always chose an $8 game with records over a $4 game without, but thats just me.

[y66]

JanM, on Aug 13 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

Although the question you asked was how to persuade clubs to produce hand records, I'd like to suggest that another alternative, that might actually improve your game equally well, would be to work on your memory. Try writing the auctions down on your scorecard & then after the game go over the hands and see whether you can recreate the hands and the play. I know some people who started this sort of process by writing their own hands down on the scoresheet. I find the auction easier to write down and usually enough to jog my memory.

One of the most important things all of us can do to improve is to do a better job of visualizing all 4 hands during the bidding and play. In fact, one expert I know suggested that the reason men are usually better than women (at the top level) in bridge is because they are better able to visualize things (males usually do better on spatial relation type tests for instance). I know that it takes me a serious effort to form a picture of the entire hand and that when I do so I play better.

I remember one session I played with my former husband, before hand records existed, where I happened to leave on a trip immediately after the game. When I got home, he commented that he'd gone through the scores and had recreated all of the hands relatively easily. I know another expert who routinely goes through his scores and not only recreates the hands but writes up what happened and what he thinks he and his partner could have done to improve. I'm sure there are many reasons why both of these players are world champions, but the fact that they pay enough attention to each hand to be able to recreate the hands and what happened later is surely one reason.

I really appreciate posts like these from experienced players. Will work on getting more of this stuff into my bridge routine.

[McBruce]

One other benefit of either using hand records with players doing the preduplication, or a program like mine that allows the TD to enter the hands dealt by players: last night we had a disputed claim which was finally resolved, and then the players put the cards back into the board: 17 in one hand, 12 in another, 13 and 10 in the remaining slots.

As Craig Ferguson says, "I know!"

Hand records give you a second way of restoring the deal, or checking later to see if it was fouled at some point.

[Cascade]

McBruce, on Aug 16 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

One other benefit of either using hand records with players doing the preduplication, or a program like mine that allows the TD to enter the hands dealt by players: last night we had a disputed claim which was finally resolved, and then the players put the cards back into the board: 17 in one hand, 12 in another, 13 and 10 in the remaining slots.

As Craig Ferguson says, "I know!"

Hand records give you a second way of restoring the deal, or checking later to see if it was fouled at some point.

That is why it is normal in some places to write the hand on the traveller.

[awm]

jillybean, on Aug 15 2009, 11:33 AM, said:

I'll always chose an $8 game with records over a $4 game without, but thats just me.

I think that you are in a distinct minority here. If more people felt the same way, they could inform the club manager and probably get hand records (a $4/session price hike would easily cover the expense for this).

Honestly I find that much of what goes on in the local clubs is pretty random and non-sensical, and that trying to review the hands and think about "what went wrong" is mostly a waste of time when the opponents and field results are how they are. Regionals (and even sectionals although those are often little better than club game fields) normally have hand records.

[Mbodell]

JoAnneM, on Aug 15 2009, 07:49 AM, said:

If we started using hand records we would have to have a non-playing director, which would drop half a table from our game and would require one of us to sit there very bored for 3 1/2 hours twice a week.

One does not follow from the other. Before we had a dealing machine here directors would prepare their hands and then sometimes play (we'd have directors play only if needed to fill a movement or avoid having someone sit out). You can get dealing instructions where the dealer doesn't look at the cards (but takes a suited and sorted deck and deals based on arrows). Or you can have directors switch and prepare each other's hands. Or you can have directors deal and just trust them not to remember their hands too well (I don't know about you, but where we are even when directors play they are not eligible for MP).

Obviously you know your players best and may be doing the best thing for them. But it isn't the case that hand records automatically means a non-playing director.

[jillybean]

awm, on Aug 15 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

Honestly I find that much of what goes on in the local clubs is pretty random and non-sensical, and that trying to review the hands and think about "what went wrong" is mostly a waste of time when the opponents and field results are how they are. Regionals (and even sectionals although those are often little better than club game fields) normally have hand records.

POP

[helene_t]

awm, on Aug 15 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

Honestly I find that much of what goes on in the local clubs is pretty random and non-sensical, and that trying to review the hands and think about "what went wrong" is mostly a waste of time when the opponents and field results are how they are.

Huh? You don't have to be an expert to have fruitful discussions with p about what you could have done better.

[cherdanno]

awm, on Aug 15 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

Honestly I find that much of what goes on in the local clubs is pretty random and non-sensical, and that trying to review the hands and think about "what went wrong" is mostly a waste of time when the opponents and field results are how they are. Regionals (and even sectionals although those are often little better than club game fields) normally have hand records.

Sorry but I think this is non-sense. If you missed a good line for an overtrick, then you missed a good line for an overtrick, regardless of how bad your opponents are, or how bad the field is.

Of course, you shouldn't be resulting - if you got a bad score just because your opponents didn't make the same mistake as every other pair defending the same contract, then you don't blame yourself for that result.

[NickRW]

helene_t, on Aug 16 2009, 12:54 AM, said:

awm, on Aug 15 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

Honestly I find that much of what goes on in the local clubs is pretty random and non-sensical, and that trying to review the hands and think about "what went wrong" is mostly a waste of time when the opponents and field results are how they are.

Huh? You don't have to be an expert to have fruitful discussions with p about what you could have done better.

I think that Adam probably meant that in a poor or mixed quality field, quite a high percentage of both your good and bad results are more due to randomness in the results at other tables than due to your good or bad play.

But, as you point out, one can still try to work out what you could have done better.

Nick

[JoAnneM]

I don't know which is more important - to continue as a playing director and playing with the three players that I am mentoring plus my regulars partners, or just stop playing and print playing records that will still be laying on the table when everyone goes home. Those are the the extremes, of course.

Some of these comments from people who don't run clubs are interesting. We all know there are "takers" and "givers". What would be the motivation for me to run a non-profit club where I never get to play, but do most of the work? Now, doing most of the work, but getting to play, makes it go down a lot easier when all the "takers" come in. And I always have one or two "givers" to at least set up the tables.

[Cascade]

JoAnneM, on Aug 16 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

I don't know which is more important - to continue as a playing director and playing with the three players that I am mentoring plus my regulars partners, or just stop playing and print playing records that will still be laying on the table when everyone goes home. Those are the the extremes, of course.

Some of these comments from people who don't run clubs are interesting. We all know there are "takers" and "givers". What would be the motivation for me to run a non-profit club where I never get to play, but do most of the work? Now, doing most of the work, but getting to play, makes it go down a lot easier when all the "takers" come in. And I always have one or two "givers" to at least set up the tables.

Does everyone at your club play every session.

I mean are there sessions in which some players play who might be willing to do something for another session?

Hand Records certainly add value to the experience of playing bridge. It is frequent here that we need to print additional hand records.

If you don't have a dealing machine then this entails a little extra work but it is possible. Another idea is to play put a print out of the boards for one round on each table. Those tables then make up those boards and then we all move for the first round. This will work fine for a normal Mitchell movement except that we all end up playing one round less than usual. But even that could be beneficial for some numbers of tables.

[helene_t]

Although I personally find hand records very helpful and would easily be willing to pay an extra pound per session for them, I think JoAnne has a point. In a big city like Amsterdam with dozens of clubs there is a niche market for a couple of clubs that offer hand records. The same may or may not be true in Vancouver. But overall, the vast majority of players are not interested.

In Amsterdam there even is a club that uses machine dealt cards just for saving players the trouble of dealing - they don't print the records. Obviously nobody has ever asked for it.

[NickRW]

JoAnneM, on Aug 16 2009, 03:30 AM, said:

I don't know which is more important - to continue as a playing director and playing with the three players that I am mentoring plus my regulars partners, or just stop playing and print playing records that will still be laying on the table when everyone goes home...

You have a point. I am interested in hand records, when I can get them - which isn't that often. But some players (quite a lot actually) aren't even really interested in the results, let alone hand records.

You're hearing comments from keener players here.

Nick

P.S. There are other non profit models. My club is not particularly owned by anyone (as are [I belive] the majority in the UK). It has a bank account in its own name and is run by an unpaid committee. Eight of us take it in turns to direct. Some do other chores like scoring, maintain web pages, making sure the boards have cleanish decks of cards, ordering fresh stationery and so on. Most everyone else who is a member who doesn't have a chore gets press ganged into volunteering to be a "hall manager" every once in a while (put out the tables, wash up the cups, collect the table money etc). Basically we're a club and we expect everyone to contribute in some way.

[blackshoe]

I suspect if you read your club's bylaws (you do have bylaws, right?) they will say that the members own the club.

[NickRW]

blackshoe, on Aug 16 2009, 03:23 PM, said:

I suspect if you read your club's bylaws (you do have bylaws, right?) they will say that the members own the club.

Frankly there may well be a document that says something like that - I've never seen such a thing (not in relation to my Bridge club, nor any other of the other clubs I've ever been a member of (and there have been quite a few of those). IANAL, but the concept of "ownership" seems to have little to do with clubs (of all types) in the UK for all practical purposes.

Nick

[JoAnneM]

Some of you mentioned writing the hands on the traveler the first round. How does that work? I looked at the travelers offered for sale and don't see anything appropriate. I was actually thinking that if that was done I could enter the hands at home after the game and post them with the results. At least that is something.

[Cascade]

If you have access to dealmaster pro it looks much the same as those except where the preprinted hand was there is blank space (lined) where you can fill in the hands.